What is your opinion of Dante?

[CmdrAJD]

I actually read the Inferno because of Star Trek. There was an issue of the Trek comic in the 80s (Issue #52 from 7/88 by Peter David) where a sick telepath turned the whole ship into hell from the Inferno, and quotes from the poem were used throughout. After I read the comic, I asked my mother, who was an English teacher, about it, and she handed me her copy of the Inferno to read. I never thought about it being an influence on Deep Space Nine.

As for Dante himself, I appreciate the imagination, but I got a bit bored in the Purgatorio and Paradiso sections. Also, a translation with good footnotes is almost a requirement, since so much of what he talks about in the Inferno is related to Italian politics and religion in his time.

 

[Goliath]

I've never read that translation. The best I've read are the ones by John Ciardi and Mark Musa.

Sayers is quite good. She manages to set the whole poem in rhyming tercets, and as trampledamage says, her notes can be very insightful. The two things I do dislike about her work are, first, that she writes from an overtly Christian perspective, and second, that in order to make everything rhyme, she sometimes has to sacrifice a bit of clarity.

Consider, for example, the scene in the Inferno where Dante and Virgil find the burning tombs of the heresiarchs.

Musa:

I asked, Master, what kinds of shades are these
lying down here, buried in the graves of stone,
speaking their presence in such dolorous sighs?'

And he replied, "There lie arch-heretics
of every sect, with all their disciples;
more than you think are packed within these tombs.

Ciardi:

And I: "Master, what shades are these who lie
buried in these chests and fill the air
With such a painful and unending cry?"

"These are the arch-heretics of all cults
with all their followers," he replied. "Far more
than you would think lie stuffed into these vaults.

Sayers:

"O Sir," said I, "who are these people lying
In these grim coffers, whose sharp pains disclose
Their presence to the ear by their sad sighing?"

And he: "The great heresiarchs, with all those
Of every sect, their followers; and much more
The tombs lie laden than thou wouldst suppose.

The fourth translation I have, by Steve Ellis, renders this as follows:

I ask, who is it now, master,
buried inside these vaults here,
announcing themselves so bitterly?

He tells me, it's the arch-heretics
and their disciples, of every sect,
packed in tighter than you would think.

As this suggests, Ellis is terse and "hard-boiled" compared to the others.

I'd be interested to hear from our Italian-speakers which of these versions they think best captures the essence of the original.

Okay, I'm obviously missing something here.

One of the main characters in Clerks and Clerks II is named Dante.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm guessing it's this section, btw (Canto 9, towards the end):

E io: «Maestro, quai son quelle genti
che, seppellite dentro da quell'arche,
si fan sentir coi sospiri dolenti?».

Ed elli a me: «Qui son li eresiarche
con lor seguaci, d'ogne setta, e molto
più che non credi son le tombe carche.

 

[Goliath]

^That's the one. Thanks.

I mean...

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, I didn't actually contribute much. Just trying to make it easier for the actual Italians here to translate it. If I were to give it a shot (which'll prove how much Italian I've forgotten in 4 months), it would look something like this:

And I, "Master, what are these people
that buried inside from those chests
are heard with painful sighs"

And he to me, "Here are the Arch-heratics
with their followers, of every sect, and many
more than you believe are the prison tombs."

Now hopefully somebody else can write a proper translation.

 

[Kemaiku]

I actually read the Inferno because of Star Trek. There was an issue of the Trek comic in the 80s (Issue #52 from 7/88 by Peter David) where a sick telepath turned the whole ship into hell from the Inferno, and quotes from the poem were used throughout.

I have the trade paperback, its "Who Killed Captain Kirk?" and so far I haven't gotten around to reading Inferno but the Penguin edition listed up the page is in a bookshop in town, so might stop by.

 

[iguana_tonante]

The original Italian is as follows:

E io: "Maestro, quai son quelle genti
che, seppellite dentro da quell'arche,
si fan sentir coi sospiri dolenti?".

E quelli a me: "Qui son li eresïarche
con lor seguaci, d'ogne setta, e molto
più che non credi son le tombe carche.

In my (terribly uninformed and honestly humble) opinion, I would say it is Ciardi that seized better the rhythm and music of the original verses.

However, I think that all translations (except for the last one) missed the sharp construction and brevity of Dante's poetry in this instance, using overcomplicated structures and images where Dante's words are comparatively simple and plain.

Personally, I would have translated it as something like this (probably horrible to the ears, but bear with me):

And I: "Master, who those people are,
that, buried inside those deathly arks,
I hear with such sorrow sigh?"

And he: "Here the great heretics lie and those
of every sect who fell for them; and more
the graves are full that you'd suppose."

Just my 2 florins.

 

[Goliath]

^Interesting. Thanks!

Your comments remind me of something that someone (Richard Bentley) wrote about Alexander Pope's translation of the Iliad: "It is a very pretty poem, Mr. Pope, but you must not call it Homer."

 

[TheBrew]

I sympathize with Dante. It's not easy to deal with a girlfriend who sucked 37 seven dicks before him...

Actually, he was number 37.

 

[SmoothieX]

Dante? That cocksmokin' Clerk!

 

[stj]

I've only read the Ciardi translation. Like everyone I found the Inferno floridly fascinating. The Purgatorio was something of a slog, but I found that the Paradiso, once I started grasping it as a sort of beatific chorus (an embodied metaphor for beatific vision) was even more powerful. It taught me that mediaeval is still human. This, despite a religion that people really believed told them about the world they lived in. Many people now automatically think of religion as about another world, of no more moment than daydreams even when they "believe" in that other world.

Not having Italian, I have no true grasp of his greatness (or not.) I'd like to compare translations but they're hard to come by. I've never seen a copy of La Vita Nuova but the quote on Voyager sounded impressive. I'd also like to compare to Petrarch, Boiardo, Ariosto and Tasso but that's not going to happen, as they are unavailable.

In SF there are the Larry Niven/Jerry Pournelle takeoffs, Infernoland and some very recent, even more forgettable sequel, are stupid and malicious, like so much of their work.

 

[captcalhoun]

Dante is shoe-polish smelling fuck who can't lift a gallon of milk.

i always found Randall funnier.

Okay, I'm obviously missing something here.

Dante Hicks is one of the two lead characters in Kevin Smith's movies Clerks and Clerks II. his friend and co-lead is Randall Graves. Dante's girlfriend in the first flick admits to having given 37 men oral sex. he also smells of shoe polish after using it to make a note on the windows.

 

[LitmusDragon]

Dante Hicks is one of the two lead characters in Kevin Smith's movies Clerks and Clerks II. his friend and co-lead is Randall Graves. Dante's girlfriend in the first flick admits to having given 37 men oral sex. he also smells of shoe polish after using it to make a note on the windows.

Plus he's not even supposed to be here today!

 

[TheBrew]

Also, his character's name is a direct reference to Dante of the Inferno type.

 

[Marie1]

Is he on all the €2.00 coins or were they a special edition? If I go to Italy, I must get one!

Dante was a bit lacking in my education. =(

 

[Holdfast]

I can't read Italian, so I probably underestimate Dante's importance. And I haven't read most of his work.

But I have read the Inferno a few times--I own four different translations. I thought it was brilliant. Some of the images therein are literally unforgettable.

Ditto to all the above, though I've only read one translation.

(the aforementioned Sayers version, in case you were wondering)

 

[Admiral Shran]

I never thought about it being an influence on Deep Space Nine.

One could look at Dukat's punishment at the end of the series as being inspired by the punishment of some of the sinners in the Ninth Circle of the Inferno.

In Round 3, Dante learns that traitors to guests (roughly analogous to Dukat's treason against Cardassia by allying with the Dominion) are punished by having their bodies on Earth immeidately seized by a demon, so that what appears to be a walking man is in fact someone completely beyond repentance or redemption (similiar to what happened to Dukat after he was possessed by the Pah Wraiths).

 

[Trekker4747]

i always found Randall funnier.

Okay, I'm obviously missing something here.

Dante Hicks is one of the two lead characters in Kevin Smith's movies Clerks and Clerks II. his friend and co-lead is Randall Graves. Dante's girlfriend in the first flick admits to having given 37 men oral sex. he also smells of shoe polish after using it to make a note on the windows.

The windows, BTW, are shuttered shut (real world: reason. So the film-makers could make the movie at night when the store was closed even though the "action" of the movie takes place during the day time -for the most part) with the locks jammed with gum. Dante uses shoe polish to and a bed sheet to make a sign that says "I assure you we are open!" which he hangs from the closed shutters. And he still ends up with customers coming in all day long asking if he's open.

Also? Clerks is one of the best movies ever made and should be watched by everyone.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Is he on all the €2.00 coins or were they a special edition? If I go to Italy, I must get one!

He's on all €2 coins issue by Italy, except for a few special commemorative editions. Obviously around here you may also find euro coins issued by other EU countries.

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ Hot damn! Now I'm going to have get my ass to the bank and find the exchange desk.