What is your Federation?

[Nightdiamond]

I have to admit, I might have been overstating the replicators.

I too thought the energy requirements would be huge and need to be replaced frequently.

Then I recalled the episodes "The Emissary" and "Relics" both those ships were TOS era, and were running for about 70 years.

(The replicator works similar to the transporter that Scotty was suspended in for 70 years).

Then I thought, 'if a transporter or a ship can run for 70 years, how long could a simple replicator run'?

And how much energy would really need to be used?

In Voyager's "Resolutions", there was also a similar scenario.

Perhaps the replicator itself could be used to create other forms of abundance;

Use replicators to make a lot of manure (or even something better) and create a fertile valley.

Weather modification to make sure everything grows.


Earth was pretty bad off too before it entered space, but they seemed to managed to use replicator technology wisely enough to be called a "paradise".

Still, best hypothesis, is that replicators solves hunger, but the darn things need some type of energy to power it-which isn't abundant???

 

[Sci]

I sometimes wonder if perhaps replicators are not much more practical aboard starships, where they can draw upon the power of a matter/anti-matter reactor, than they would be on planetary surfaces (where I cannot imagine a matter/anti-matter reactor would ever be allowed, given how bad an M/A-M explosion would be if something went wrong).

 

[T'Girl]

I too thought the energy requirements would be huge and need to be replaced frequently.

Then I recalled the episodes "The Emissary" and "Relics" both those ships were TOS era, and were running for about 70 years.

You have to remember that in "Relics," half the people who entered the Jenolen's transporter died. Scotty's matter stream, his physical self, spent 75 years in the pattern buffer, given that the buffer was being powered solely by a diagnostic test program, that aspect of the transporter it would seem require less power than other functions like materialization, dematerialization and sending the matter stream to where-ever.

The replicator (as I understand it) possesses no pattern buffer, in the case of food, one of two giant replicators aboard the Enterprise Dee beams raw material (organic goo) out of a bin, alters the matter stream to what was ordered and the then altered matter stream is sent by conduit to any of hundreds of receivers scattered all over the ship. Altering the matter stream and moving it around is what consumes so much power.

In the case of "The Emissary," the Klingon ship left the Klingon homeworld a couple of years after Scotty left on the Jenolen, so the technology aboard the T'Ong would have been post-movie era, not TOS era. Also, the Klingons generally do not seem to suffer the equipment problems that affect the Federation Starfleet so often.

 

[Myasishchev]

I sometimes wonder if perhaps replicators are not much more practical aboard starships, where they can draw upon the power of a matter/anti-matter reactor, than they would be on planetary surfaces (where I cannot imagine a matter/anti-matter reactor would ever be allowed, given how bad an M/A-M explosion would be if something went wrong).

I dunno. They let the things get in orbit, which would probably be far worse if something went wrong. At least a breach in a buried facility would be largely absorbed by the earth over it, whereas a gamma flash in orbit would do rotten things to the atmosphere from horizon to horizon.

I do sort of get the feeling that energy budgeting is not as much of a concern on a starship, though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I dunno. They let the things get in orbit, which would probably be far worse if something went wrong. At least a breach in a buried facility would be largely absorbed by the earth over it, whereas a gamma flash in orbit would do rotten things to the atmosphere from horizon to horizon.

Are we sure the INCIDENT?! on Praxis wasn't a matter-antimatter explosion, which succeeded in blowing chunks of moon into the atmosphere on top of all the other nasty stuff?

 

[Nightdiamond]

I've read about what happens if you release the energy from the atom, so I often wondered about that too.

In "Resolutions" (VOY), Janeway and Chakotay were given a replicator along with a small building.

Presumably they were going to be there a long time, perhaps a lifetime.

It is assumed that the one replicator unit was enough to supply their needs for a lifetime.

Another example that I thought about is the Orion Syndicate -a 24th century crime organization that breaks the law for profit.

It's hard to understand their motivation for risking prison or their lives if they have or at least know about replicators.

Now with Star Wars, the same issue is self explanatory- no replicators, and many things are scarce.

They have advanced technology, but you have to pay to use it.

However one thing I just realized from this.

As far as the Federation, I have an idea now how human society might have "evolved" out of their social problems.

If you can't impress others by your clothes or possessions anymore because they can be easily created, then you have only a few things left-looks and personality.

And personality wise, being obnoxious, bigoted or arrogant would give you a low rating in a society where that that is important. (Because it took the place of money and wealth.)

Just an hypothesis though...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Heh.

I had a character in a Trek RPG who was arrogant, and a bit obnoxious to her shipmates. The way other characters treated her, she might has well have been in a different social class (hobo, not the same color as everyone, etc).

 

[T'Girl]

then you have only a few things left - looks and personality.

There's also intelligence, honor and personal character.

It is assumed that the one replicator unit was enough to supply their needs for a lifetime.

Or it assumes they'll use the replicator until the two of them "get on their feet." For example, Chakotay didn't use the replicator to produce Janeway's headboard. The machine dishes up food until the two of them figure out which food can be eaten or the first of the crops reach maturity.

And personality wise, being obnoxious, bigoted or arrogant would give you a low rating in a society

But being a arrogant, over-confident, bastard will still get the hot women to have crazy sex with you.

 

[Nightdiamond]

There's also intelligence, honor and personal character.

That's 100% true.

But being a arrogant, over-confident, bastard will still get the hot women to have crazy sex with you.

Probably will be true 115th century too, lol

Heh.

I had a character in a Trek RPG who was arrogant, and a bit obnoxious to her shipmates. The way other characters treated her, she might has well have been in a different social class (hobo, not the same color as everyone, etc).

People like that were all over the actual trek episodes too.

The thing is, Trek says that humans by the 22-24th centuries have overcome all their "prejudices".

Not just that, but if you watch a little of the early TNG episodes, there are a few other claims about how advanced human behavior were.

I've often wondered how humans could have evolved to that point.

At first I thought humans finally had enough of the strife and wars and suddenly said, "That's enough, we've learned our lesson".

But then maybe it's a little more simple.

If you can't impress someone with a fancy car anymore (because anyone else can get one easily too) or designer clothes, or wealth, then what you're really left with is character and personality.

Claiming to be better than others won't fly anymore as far money is concerned.

And if you're simply jerk or antisocial, you can't fall back on good old possessions anymore, you're just going to be a--hole.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The impression I got was that Trek had a tendency to make the future look like a technological wonderland that had nearly every practical problem solved..

Replicators make food, clothes, guitars, gifts, medicine, fake alcohol etc.

If you count the holdec it gets even more complicated.

I realized that when I wondered while in the world does the Orion Syndicate even exists in the 24th century?

Firstly - a society being rich does not preclude criminality from existing; nor does richness preclude this society from being oppressed.

Secondly - scarcity also exists in the trekverse (as established in several episodes) relating moslty to prime matters, high technology items and high technology in general, energy, etc.

A replicator is established as being able to create food, pieces of equipment - but it still expends prime matters and energy; and there are a lot of established products it can't make.

 

[Navaros]

I'd present the Federation as the hypocritical, Borg-like force of evil that they are, as evidenced for example, by the genocide that they sanctioned against the Founders. And also evidenced by how they never follow their alleged own prime directive of non-interference in alien cultures.

 

[Anwar]

That's why you'll never write for Trek, .

 

[Myasishchev]

I dunno. They let the things get in orbit, which would probably be far worse if something went wrong. At least a breach in a buried facility would be largely absorbed by the earth over it, whereas a gamma flash in orbit would do rotten things to the atmosphere from horizon to horizon.

Are we sure the INCIDENT?! on Praxis wasn't a matter-antimatter explosion, which succeeded in blowing chunks of moon into the atmosphere on top of all the other nasty stuff?

Well, probably, but saying that makes antimatter unsafe is like saying nuclear power plants are inherently unsafe because of Chernobyl. Because to blow up a moon? Damn, that's a lot of antimatter. There's something wrong with that scenario beyond just the materials used.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Very good points.

I can understand with psychopathic crimes. But it gets harder to understand with crimes for profit.


In "The Neutral Zone", Picard goes as far as to say that in the 24th century, material wants and needs no longer existed.

We can assumed it is because of the replicator (in part).

So we get to the Orion Syndicate for example- it's a criminal organization whose motivation is profit, ultimately for material gain.

We have to assume they know about replicators.

If they do and can have access to them, it's hard to understand their motivation to risk their lives and freedom and commit crimes against other people when there are units that can provide almost all their needs.

I would even go as far as to say luxury, if you've seen how much Troi enjoys her chocolate dessert, whenever she wants. (It did look good by the way)

And from what I've seen these things are no larger than a common dishwasher.

Now in the Delta Quadrant, these things makes sense. Water was considered scarce and everyone saved, fought and bargained for it.

The scene with Neelix partying it up after they introduce him to replicator for the first time says it all.

 

[T'Girl]

In "The Neutral Zone", Picard goes as far as to say that in the 24th century, material wants and needs no longer existed.

This is completely ridiculous, regardless of how plentiful or inexpensive things are, people will still have needs. Housing, clothing, food, we will still want and need these materials.

 

[Anwar]

He meant that wants and needs the way a guy from the 1980s understands no longer exists.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Take it for what it is, but Picard says in The Neutral Zone:

PICARD: is the twenty-fourth century.

Those material needs no longer exist.

PICARD: That's what this is all about...A lot has changed in three hundred years.

People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things".

We have eliminated hunger,want, the need for possessions.
We have grown out of our infancy.

I agree, he was most likely just explaining that in terms that a 20th century person would understand, but this is one of the Utopian style statements that early TNG is famous for.

No need for "possessions"?

At first I was starting to see it the other way, but this takes me back to my original conclusion-it all goes back to the replicator again.

So to some extent, how characters like Vash, Quark, and (his customers) act just don't make much sense (especially to captain Picard)

Too much Utopianism makes for confusing, weird plots.

I'd choose that world in a split second, even if it does seem a little, well boring..

 

[ProtoAvatar]

If they do and can have access to them, it's hard to understand their motivation to risk their lives and freedom and commit crimes against other people when there are units that can provide almost all their needs.

Nightdiamond, your errors are:
-assuming that criminality is motivated only by the need for items that a replicator can make - food, clothes, etc.
-and that the replicator can fulfill any possible 'need'.
Both assumptions are incorrect:

Any criminology treaty will show that in many cases, the criminals do not lack anything that can be bought with money. Indeed, many criminals lived/live in luxury, and yet they continue with their criminal behaviour.

And, as I already said, star trek repeatedly showed that there are a LOT of 'items' that a replicator can't make.
And 'needs' is a concept far larger than 'items'.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Take it for what it is, but Picard says in The Neutral Zone:

PICARD: is the twenty-fourth century.

Those material needs no longer exist.

PICARD: That's what this is all about...A lot has changed in three hundred years.

People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things".

We have eliminated hunger,want, the need for possessions.
We have grown out of our infancy.

I agree, he was most likely just explaining that in terms that a 20th century person would understand, but this is one of the Utopian style statements that early TNG is famous for.

No need for "possessions"?

Perhaps we shouldn't look at things in Trek quite so literally.

Picard could have been referring to the need to possess material things to prove one's worth to others (like needing to have the most expensive car, the biggest house, etc., as a measure of status or "livin' large"). It could be what really determines status is what a person does rather than how many fancy things they own.

But just one look at Picard's ready room (or round the quarters of any of the major characters in TNG) says that people still have personal possessions or things that mean something to them on a personal level...

 

[Nightdiamond]

Perhaps we shouldn't look at things in Trek quite so literally.

Picard could have been referring to the need to possess material things to prove one's worth to others (like needing to have the most expensive car, the biggest house, etc., as a measure of status or "livin' large").

It could be what really determines status is what a person does rather than how many fancy things they own.

But just one look at Picard's ready room (or round the quarters of any of the major characters in TNG) says that people still have personal possessions or things that mean something to them on a personal level...

Definitely agreed with this part. As stated before, then you're left with personality character and Intelligence.

Now the thing is, Picard includes hunger and want along with having personal possessions.

That suggests that something is not only taking care of just the hunger and want part, but also the material needs part at the same time.

And hence the statement by Picard implying people no longer really accumulate things; everything is taken care of.


Utopian statements before realizing how inconvenient it is perhaps?

Nightdiamond, your errors are:
-assuming that criminality is motivated only by the need for items that a replicator can make - food, clothes, etc.
-and that the replicator can fulfill any possible 'need'.
Both assumptions are incorrect:

Any criminology treaty will show that in many cases, the criminals do not lack anything that can be bought with money. Indeed, many criminals lived/live in luxury, and yet they continue with their criminal behaviour.

Agreed, and I can understand if a person is a sociopath or has some psychological problems. They are going to commit crimes no matter what.

In this case, I mean committing crime for profits.

From what I see the replicator can create even luxurious comforts; I think Data once said the replicator could create any dish a person wanted. (meaning wide variety)

In a society where food supply is limited (no replicators) perhaps a criminal's motivation is to keep making money to keep from running out (and of course, it's their career)

In a society or quadrant that has replicators from the start or at least access to one, the need was never there to begin with.

Can you imagine if someone would ever prostitute themselves for money in the 24th century even when they already had access to a replicator?