• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

What is the purpose of the Prime Directive?

There is a distinction between actively preventing a disaster and passively letting it happen. The distinction is that the latter would happen regardless of whether or not you or your entire planet ever existed.

But the distinction is irrelevant. You DO exist. The Federation DOES exist. So why should it not help out when it can? It has an OBLIGATION to help, simply by virtue of its existence.

I mean, if you saw somebody about to get run over by a car, and did nothing, you are effectively as responsible for that death as the offending driver. Because you could have done something, but chose not to.

Why? Because you deem that I'm responsible? Does that mean that I should proactively stop car accidents? I know they happen, and that technology exists to save many people. Am I morally bound to protest unsafe cars and driving laws? Should I blow up the Ford factory if they don't listen? And let's get away from the accidents. Should I try to stop honor killings? Where is the line?
 
Why? Because you deem that I'm responsible? Does that mean that I should proactively stop car accidents?

If you see somebody about to walk into the street and you know a car will hit them, then you have an obligation to try and get them out of the way. "Hey! There's a car coming! Get away!", that type of thing.
 
Why? Because you deem that I'm responsible? Does that mean that I should proactively stop car accidents?

If you see somebody about to walk into the street and you know a car will hit them, then you have an obligation to try and get them out of the way. "Hey! There's a car coming! Get away!", that type of thing.

Really? And if the pedestrian didn't hear me? Do I just have to yell louder? Do I have to try and distract the driver? Push the other guy out of the way at the risk of my life? Shoot the driver and thereby choose the pedestrian's life over the driver's? Or can I just half-ass it and yell at the guy once then go about my day? Once you say I have an obligation, at what point does it end? Can you transfer that standard across to dissimilar situations (i.e. suicide attempt, guy who eat's too much McDonalds, loansharking)?

Or hey, what if by touching the pedestrian, I violate some taboo about being touched by an outsider, thereby mandating (by his/her standards) an honor killing? Do I have to stop that? What if stopping the killing I start a riot? A war? Not a situation that's going to happen on earth, but precisely the kind of unforeseen consequences that can happen on another planet. Once you say you have the right and obligation to interfere you must define if and when that obligation ends.

Tying my previous posts into one summary, I guess my argument is as follows:
1) Do I have an obligation to interfere (which by its nature is imposing my morality over others)?
2) Do I have a right to impose my morality?
3) If (and only if) the answer to 1 & 2 is yes, where does my right and obligation end?
4) Does the obligation override my life and lifestyle? Must I dedicate myself (and by extension my civilization's fleet) to solving the universes problems at the expense of my (and my civilization's) goals and wants?

As a general answer, I'd say no to all of the above.
 
Last edited:
Pardon me, but how ethnocentric is that idea -- that a set of cultures (no planet would have only one culture) hasn't had the chance to define itself just because they haven't met one particular set of foreign cultures (i.e., those not native to their world)?

Are you going to claim that the Arawaks hadn't had the chance to define themselves before the arrival of Christopher Columbus? That the Aztecs hadn't had a chance to define themselves before the arrival of Hernán Cortés? Did the Powhatan Renape not have a chance to define themselves before the arrival of the English?

The problem with this idea is that no culture naturally exists in a vacuum; cultures exist in interaction with other cultures. That's normal and healthy. Further, contact with aliens wouldn't be the "culmination," because cultural evolution doesn't have a "peak" or "apex" against which a culture's "maturity" can be judged. Cultures just are.

The issue isn't "interference or isolationism." The issue is, treating these other cultures as equals.

Where to begin, somehow I doubt you believe the Arawaks, Aztecs, and Powhatan Renape are better off because of the arrival of the Europeans.

As I have argued several times in this thread, I think that whether or not a given culture benefits from contact with a more technologically advanced culture depends on the more powerful culture's attitudes. Europe benefited greatly from contact with the more technologically advanced cultures of Asia and the Middle East -- and then it set out to conquer the world, bringing ruin to less technologically-developed cultures.

In other words, I am arguing that inter-cultural contact is only harmful when the more technologically powerful culture engages in imperialism.

This is setting aside a far more legitimate concern when it comes to inter-cultural contact -- the spread of diseases to which the people exposed are not immune. I'm judging the idea of "cultural" damage rather than the issue of the spread of disease.



That's a ridiculously patronizing way of describing it. The Arawaks, Aztecs, and Powhatan Renape would all have been fine had the Europeans not adopted a hostile, imperialist policy. What if the Kingdom of Spain and the Kingdom of England had decided to treat them as equals and respected their sovereignty?



All of those cultures will have been exposed to wildly differing ideas for millennia on their own world. They would all have been thoroughly familiar with the processes of being exposed to new cultures and assimilating some ideas from them while disregarding others; that's what cultures do. They would all have strong senses of cultural identity.

The only difference is that this time, the new cultures would be from another planet rather than another continent. There is no reason at all to think that that would be inherently more harmful than contact with new cultures native to the same planet -- especially if the two cultures have been separated by so many millennia that neither culture has any clue the other exists; in such a situation, they are, effectively, the same thing as aliens to one-another.



That says more about you than about that culture.

To me, that is what the Prime Directive ought to be about -- not about saying that this culture is somehow unequal to our own because they have some sort of cultural practice we abhor, but instead saying, "We need this rule to fight the impulse we have to refuse to treat foreign cultures as equals and engage in cultural imperialism because we don't like something aliens do amongst themselves."



No. But I think the Spanish would have been right to make contact with the Aztecs, minimize the spread of disease (to be fair to the Spanish, from what I understand, they didn't understand at first that they were spreading illnesses to which the Aztec had no immunity), and establish peaceful, egalitarian diplomatic relations with them while seeking to, peacefully, as equals, persuade the Aztecs to change policies they objected to while still respecting the Aztecs' right to make those decisions for themselves.

And, by the same token, the Aztec would have been right to make contact with the Spanish, minimize the spread of disease, and establish peaceful, egalitarian diplomatic relations with them while seeking to, peacefully, as equals, persuade the Spanish to change policies they objected to while still respecting the Spaniards' right to make those decisions for themselves.

And if the Federation would have listed me as Galactic Enemy #1, simply because I went and did what I believe inside myself was right, having helped and saved the innocent, the ignorent, the poor, the oppressed, and the enslaved, I'd carry that mark on my name with pride.

But they wouldn't, would they? As TNG's "Angel One" showed, the Prime Directive only applies to Starfleet officers. There's nothing to keep *civilians* from doing what they like. So going by your example, you would be free to do all of those things under Federation law. Unless you are a Starfleet officer of course. The Prime Directive does not apply to private citizens, only Starfleet.

Indeed; the Prime Directive is Starfleet General Order Number One. It's the rule that's in place when there are not contradictory orders from the Federation government.

However, according to DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," the Federation Charter strictly bans interference in the internal affairs of foreign states, so the Federation Charter seems to have a civilian government equivalent to the Prime Directive.

Given "Angel One"'s claim that Federation civilians were capable of interfering in the internal affairs of foreign states without the Federation stopping them, I would presume that the ban in the Federation Charter specifically applies to the Federation government, its agencies, and its constituent polities and their agencies, but not to individual citizens operating outside of Federation territorial jurisdiction.

~Proudly brandishes his Galactic Enemy #1 mark with pride.~ :cool: Now I'd need a nice, lil ship to suit me.

~Envisions a highly modified starship painted TARDIS blue~ Pwwwwettty. :drool:
 
The Prime Directive isn't about playing God. It denies Starfleet officers the right and ability to "play" at anything.

You're standing on a street, you see someone about to be hit by a car.

First of all that was going to happen with or without you standing there.

Second of all, by having a voice and the ability to warn the person, you now, to some, have an "obligation" to help - and refusing to do so now makes you guilty somehow. Now you are accused of being pro-negligent homocide or something. Now your whole belief system and set of morals is accused. You suck as a human being. Now, this thing that happened is entirely your fault, because you could have stopped it and you didn't. Of course, you don't know whether the person was trying to actually exploit the driver's insurance company, or commit suicide, or make a political statement about reducing the dependency on fuel-burning cars, or whatever. To you, the problem is exactly as it appears to YOUR persective. Fine. Probably an accident. But you have to admit, maybe it wasn't. Maybe the guy driving was getting revenge for the murder of a milion people at the hands of the pedestrian. You missed that particular headline, because it happend fifteen years ago, and you just blew into town on your pretty pony.

Now, you tell your Starfleet, by all possible means, jump in there and do the "moral" thing according to your momentary assessment of the situation. Now when Starfleet meets any problem like that, they get involved. They try to save that pedestrian. Some get killed in the process. Some save the murderer and let the innocent one suffer. Some get all three of them killed. Some now call attention to the Federation, and it finds it suddenly has a new and powerful enemy, the driver's criminal organization, and guess what, they are more powerful than the Federation.

Ok, these are extreme examples that I'm using for illustration. The point is, by having a PD, you now TAKE THAT CHOICE AWAY from those officers. It is no longer their call to make. The car accident about to happen is going to happen because the officers are not there to stop accidents. They are not there to solve all the galaxy's problems. Nor do they labor under the misperception that they have that kind of power, or discrimination.

Yes, you want to help people. But you don't know for sure that what you do is help. THAT is the point. It's not up to you to define what is help. You don't have the perspective or the knowledge, where other planets are concerned.

If humans went to Vulcan, before Vulcan was spacefaring, and we said, "Let's help them quell their wars", how would we have done it? How about a MAD situation?
How about martial law? How about teaching them the ways of the Dalai Lama? They were so primitive, and we so advanced, they immediately embraced our ways.

They ceased to meet their potential. They failed to embrace logic. They became more human, and in so doing, destroyed not only themselves, but every other planet they encountered - and now they are gunning for Earth.

Oh the problem took three thousand years to manifest itself, so to the starfleet officers at the time, it "didn't exist"; solving Vulcan's problems for it was their "moral obligation" (goodness knows they wouldn't want to be called racist).

So what if the galaxy will never know the true Vulcan-that-never-was? How could that possibly effect ME and MY wonderful life? Vulcan? they say it was a nice place to visit. Guess we'll never know. Ah well, off to the next sector with our shipments of scientology books.

Hm, enlightened.
 
^Quite. I do enjoy ethics and philosophy, had time and school allowed I would have minored in it.
 
I took some philosophy, not that much though. This actually is more in-depth than the stuff we studied though, more sociological.
 
No, it's not 100 level philosophy, it's ethics, maybe 200 level. Not more advanced than that, as things get abstracted and esoteric beyond second year.
 
So, I bet you think that, when you see a person drowning, you should never try to save them? When you see a person on the street getting raped or beaten to death, you should just walk away and ignore the whole thing? Meh, it's none of your business. They should fend for themselves, if they can't, they were not strong enough and they should die. If you help one person, next they'll be expecting you to save everyone! Can't have that! :rolleyes:

You're using individual hypotheticals to somehow counter completely different situations that I was describing, thus I see no logic in you above examples.

What I decide to do in those situations is up to me to decide, not you or anybody else. My decisions depend on the situation in question that I am presented with. Just describing random hypotheticals will not get a valid answer from me, because there can be many more factors involved in each situation.

Is the drowning person in an area that I can save them?

Will I only add another victim or person to save depending on the location, tides, currents, etc.?

Is the guy who is being beaten up being beating up by a bunch of people who have knives and guns, and am I out numbered to a point where I would do better good in calling the police then getting myself killed/beaten up as well?

Regardless of all of these factors and hypotheticals, my comments, if you read them correctly, were geared towards societies and cultures, not individuals and individual situations, therefore my answers to your hypotheticals (if there was more information to go by) would be much different from my answers towards society to society, culture to culture, planet to planet.

Yeah, I bet every driver you see on the street has built their own car. :rolleyes:

Once again, you obviously missed the point.

It's pretty stupid having to invent things that have already been invented. I don't see the necessity of living in 18th century conditions before I personally manage to invent electricity - since someone else has already done it long time ago.

It was a metaphor towards societies and different cultures not towards you building your own house or doing your own heart surgery.

Hell, with your above logic, let's give Somalia Nuclear Technology...... I'm sure that'd be a wonderful idea :techman:

If you're going to try to invent new technologies, it makes a lot more sense if you first know what technologies already exist. Then, instead of treading old ground, you can actually contribute something new. That would certainly help progress a lot more than 1000 different people having to invent things that have already been invented by others.

In our societies, yes you're correct.... when it comes to this topic of simply handing all this stuff to under developed planets/cultures and not letting them follow their own course of technological and cultural evolution, it does not apply.

Once again as an example, Somalia is currently without a decent government, extremist muslim organizations are taking over various parts of the country, pirates are taking over ships and holding their crews and cargo hostages and if they don't get what they want, they kill people.

So..... Maybe we should suddenly give them all sorts of new technology, give them bigger, more advanced nuclear powered boats and weapons, help out the various muslim extremist factions there to gain a stronger foothold, train their forces to be more advanced, organized and deadly...... maybe then they'll suddenly lay down their arms and act all peaceful and nice with the rest of the world. :rolleyes:

Blindly handing out your technology and advancements to every joe blow society out there without thinking of the long term consequences is a very foolish thing to do.

What an perfect case in point?

How about we look at Afghanistan? Before this recent invasion/occupation, the US funded, trained and supplied the Afghan "Freedom Fighters" to resist Soviet Union oppression and occupation..... it apparently worked, yet years later down the road the US gets attacked in September 11th, 2001 by the same people they helped fund, train and then left to fight over ruling Afghanistan after the Soviet war was over....... the same country who funded these same people who attacked them is now out there trying to hunt down these same people whom they are involved in creating in the first place.

Don't get it yet?

If not, then you never will.
 
Praxius has a point, we endure from our own will to live and our own creativity/ingenuity, not from some greater power just handing us everything on a silver platter. If we never faced adversity we'd all be pansies.

In a nutshell that's where I was heading.
 
Why? Because you deem that I'm responsible? Does that mean that I should proactively stop car accidents?

If you see somebody about to walk into the street and you know a car will hit them, then you have an obligation to try and get them out of the way. "Hey! There's a car coming! Get away!", that type of thing.

Really? And if the pedestrian didn't hear me? Do I just have to yell louder? Do I have to try and distract the driver? Push the other guy out of the way at the risk of my life?

You can take reasonable steps, yes. Yelling would be such a step. No one expects you to sacrifice your own life. If you yell as loud as you can, I think that would be reasonable. OTOH, if you're standing very near to the guy, you can reach out and pull him away without getting into the flow of traffic.

The point is that there are certain steps that you can take, but doing NOTHING is not one of them.

As for the drowning example: If you don't know CPR, just call a doctor. Get out your cellphone and call 911. How hard can that be? Just do *something*.

Calling the police, or a doctor, is often enough interference. It may be all that you know how to do, or all that you *can* do without getting yourself hurt or killed. Fine. It's better than nothing.

Tying my previous posts into one summary, I guess my argument is as follows:
1) Do I have an obligation to interfere (which by its nature is imposing my morality over others)?

Saving somebody from getting killed is imposing morality on them? :guffaw:
 
So, I bet you think that, when you see a person drowning, you should never try to save them? When you see a person on the street getting raped or beaten to death, you should just walk away and ignore the whole thing? Meh, it's none of your business. They should fend for themselves, if they can't, they were not strong enough and they should die. If you help one person, next they'll be expecting you to save everyone! Can't have that! :rolleyes:

You're using individual hypotheticals to somehow counter completely different situations that I was describing, thus I see no logic in you above examples.

What I decide to do in those situations is up to me to decide, not you or anybody else. My decisions depend on the situation in question that I am presented with. Just describing random hypotheticals will not get a valid answer from me, because there can be many more factors involved in each situation.

Is the drowning person in an area that I can save them?

Will I only add another victim or person to save depending on the location, tides, currents, etc.?

Is the guy who is being beaten up being beating up by a bunch of people who have knives and guns, and am I out numbered to a point where I would do better good in calling the police then getting myself killed/beaten up as well?
Or is the Prime Directive stopping you from calling the police, the lifeguards, the medics, or anyone else? Do you just walk away because it's not your business and you don't want to interfere with natural developments of the society, which includes some people getting killed? Do you expect think that the person drowning or being beaten to death had to save themselves all alone, and if they don't, they were just too weak and they shouldn't have survived anyway? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I bet every driver you see on the street has built their own car. :rolleyes:
Once again, you obviously missed the point.
I can't miss what isn't there.

It's pretty stupid having to invent things that have already been invented. I don't see the necessity of living in 18th century conditions before I personally manage to invent electricity - since someone else has already done it long time ago.
It was a metaphor towards societies and different cultures not towards you building your own house or doing your own heart surgery.

Hell, with your above logic, let's give Somalia Nuclear Technology...... I'm sure that'd be a wonderful idea :techman:

If you're going to try to invent new technologies, it makes a lot more sense if you first know what technologies already exist. Then, instead of treading old ground, you can actually contribute something new. That would certainly help progress a lot more than 1000 different people having to invent things that have already been invented by others.
In our societies, yes you're correct.... when it comes to this topic of simply handing all this stuff to under developed planets/cultures and not letting them follow their own course of technological and cultural evolution, it does not apply.

Once again as an example, Somalia is currently without a decent government, extremist muslim organizations are taking over various parts of the country, pirates are taking over ships and holding their crews and cargo hostages and if they don't get what they want, they kill people.

So..... Maybe we should suddenly give them all sorts of new technology, give them bigger, more advanced nuclear powered boats and weapons, help out the various muslim extremist factions there to gain a stronger foothold, train their forces to be more advanced, organized and deadly...... maybe then they'll suddenly lay down their arms and act all peaceful and nice with the rest of the world. :rolleyes:

Blindly handing out your technology and advancements to every joe blow society out there without thinking of the long term consequences is a very foolish thing to do.

What an perfect case in point?

How about we look at Afghanistan? Before this recent invasion/occupation, the US funded, trained and supplied the Afghan "Freedom Fighters" to resist Soviet Union oppression and occupation..... it apparently worked, yet years later down the road the US gets attacked in September 11th, 2001 by the same people they helped fund, train and then left to fight over ruling Afghanistan after the Soviet war was over....... the same country who funded these same people who attacked them is now out there trying to hunt down these same people whom they are involved in creating in the first place.
Ah, another straw man argument. :bolian:

When have I ever advocated giving weapons, or even technology of any kind, to alien civilizations?

If you find someone who has, tell them that. Until then, this is completely beside the point.

By YOUR logic, if Somalia suffered a terrible natural catastrophe or an outbreak of a disease, the UN and the other countries should not give it any kind of help - because, that would be interfering with the natural development of Somalia! :shifty: That's what we've learned from episodes like "Homeward" and "Dear Doctor". :borg:


Don't get it yet?

If not, then you never will.
Sadly, it seems you really never will.
 
Tying my previous posts into one summary, I guess my argument is as follows:
1) Do I have an obligation to interfere (which by its nature is imposing my morality over others)?
Saving somebody from getting killed is imposing morality on them? :guffaw:
How do you know, maybe they like being killed? And those screams you hear is just their way of expressing their pleasure. You're imposing your 'I don't like being murdered' morality and impeding the natural development of your neighborhood. What you should do is shrug, ignore the screams and walk away. :shifty:
 
By YOUR logic, if Somalia suffered a terrible natural catastrophe or an outbreak of a disease, the UN and the other countries should not give it any kind of help - because, that would be interfering with the natural development of Somalia! :shifty: That's what we've learned from episodes like "Homeward" and "Dear Doctor". :borg:

Curing disease brings up an interesting point. The Prime Directive is made to avoid having to decide where to draw the line. Curing disease is one place that this is an obvious application. The prime directive doesn't apply in cases of previous contamination, so curing an alien disease on a planet is perfectly ok. So what flying to a uncontacted planet and curing native diseases? At periodic points in a planets history there will be epidemics, often caused by overcrowding allowing easy transmission. The point is there are natural population governors built into the ecosystem.

If you cure one epidemic why not cure all the diseases you know how to? You have the power, are you just going to let those people die when you have the power to save them? Be honest now.

Oh wait, better make sure they have the ability to make enough food to feed all those now alive and breeding people. Are there places for them to live? That's probably going to have a negative impact on the other lifeforms on the planet. (environmental impact of the USA just from building places to live for example).

You can't fix one thing and leave or the house of cards falls. You are going to need to rebuild their entire society into one with a new equlibrium, And i'm assuming you will use one you know works (probably yours) as a model. Well say goodbye to one planets worth of diversity in the universe, it was nice while it lasted.
 
Yeah, it's much better looking only for worlds that are already technologically developed enough to be interesting to us as a potential member of the UFP. We'll just ignore everyone else, although that won't stop us from coming to their planet to "explore" and collect data about them. But try to help them in any way? Too much responsibility. Next someone we'll think that we are some sort of self-righteous interplanetary empire going around the galaxy and looking to expand... oh wait...
 
No, it's better to not screw around with other worlds before they've entered our domain and contact is inevitable. And if said planet is intriguing for whatever anthropological reasons we'll send down a careful observation team to obtain some information like anthropologists are supposed to do before leaving, without said inhabitants knowing we were there. Your definition of "Help" isn't really helping, since all you're creating are dependent vassal states of the Federation rather than independent self-sufficient civilizations.
 
No, it's better to not screw around with other worlds before they've entered our domain and contact is inevitable. And if said planet is intriguing for whatever anthropological reasons we'll send down a careful observation team to obtain some information like anthropologists are supposed to do before leaving, without said inhabitants knowing we were there.
With what purpose? What do you need that information for?

Your definition of "Help" isn't really helping, since all you're creating are dependent vassal states of the Federation rather than independent self-sufficient civilizations.
I fail to see how giving the Valakians the cure you already had discovered and then going away would make their planet "dependent vassal state" of the then-still-not-existing Federation. Please enlighten me.
 
If you see somebody about to walk into the street and you know a car will hit them, then you have an obligation to try and get them out of the way. "Hey! There's a car coming! Get away!", that type of thing.

Really? And if the pedestrian didn't hear me? Do I just have to yell louder? Do I have to try and distract the driver? Push the other guy out of the way at the risk of my life?

You can take reasonable steps, yes. Yelling would be such a step. No one expects you to sacrifice your own life. If you yell as loud as you can, I think that would be reasonable. OTOH, if you're standing very near to the guy, you can reach out and pull him away without getting into the flow of traffic.

The point is that there are certain steps that you can take, but doing NOTHING is not one of them.

As for the drowning example: If you don't know CPR, just call a doctor. Get out your cellphone and call 911. How hard can that be? Just do *something*.

Calling the police, or a doctor, is often enough interference. It may be all that you know how to do, or all that you *can* do without getting yourself hurt or killed. Fine. It's better than nothing.

Tying my previous posts into one summary, I guess my argument is as follows:
1) Do I have an obligation to interfere (which by its nature is imposing my morality over others)?
Saving somebody from getting killed is imposing morality on them? :guffaw:

None of this post, in any way, shape or form answers anything CLOSE to the issues that are at hand. You're simply picking and choosing points to limit the scope to your simplistic analogy. Specifically, you ignore the parts of my post that attempt to reapply your scenario to something remotely close to the issues the PD is meant to address.

This thread is not about some idiot that's about to be run over by some jerk, or some poor drowning sap. So enough with the straw man arguments.

I fail to see how giving the Valakians the cure you already had discovered and then going away would make their planet "dependent vassal state" of the then-still-not-existing Federation. Please enlighten me.

Because the next time there's a catastrophic disease they may wait for deus ex machina cures rather than research the cure on their own, or maybe just delay or reduce research funding. Dependency is never an overnight phenomenon. And once you create that dependency, then and only then, are your actually morally bound to fix it.

Not saying that's the best argument presented here, just answering it for you.
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top