What "insurrection?" ?!

[darkwing_duck1]

Picard knowingly rebelled against the UFP government and the legal orders that government had issued him. He didn't "insurrect" in the sense of directly trying to topple that government, but he certainly defied that government. There was no way he could pretend that Dougherty's actions or orders to him would have been illegal.

Bullshit. The very principles of the Federation declared the Council's and Dougherty's actions to be illegal. The Federation does not steal planets from their sovereign populations.

The orders were illegal and Picard had a DUTY to disobey them.

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?" That's the point. If you can do it to 6 or 60 or 600 you can do it to 6000, 600000, 6000000...you can do it to anybody.

Which is complete bullshit. If you jaywalk, does that mean you are capable of killing a million people?

Completely going around the point, aren't you?

What gives the Federation the moral or legal right to steal the Baku planet from it's rightful owners? They are not Federation citizens, so no possible power of immanent domain could attatch. The very fact that they set up the scheme the way they did shows they knew damn well that they were doing something wrong.

A single Ba'ku chanting "Hell, no, I won't go!" on top of his hill of plenty is nothing but a criminal. Three minivan-fulls of them ain't much different. A thousand people defending their lifestyle is politically relevant, though. One simply has to think in terms of numbers whenever one considers social issues: the mere individual cannot, must not be respected if a society is to be held together.

I'm a semi-socialist and even I know that's frakking bullshit, Timo. There ARE limits.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

But I still think Picard, despite his disobedience, was not rebelling against the UFP in any way except against this one issue. He had no intention of even causing unrest, except perhaps to expose Dougherty & Co.'s murky ethics.


But Darkwing Duck: I respect and understand your valid and differring view. I have had disagreements with others about this before, and I don't wish to start an argument (except about the name). I apologize for making an issue about it. Sometimes I'm just plain moronic and thoughtless.


But I still maintain there was no insurrection or even an anti-UFP rebellion!

I think we're applying slightly different definitions of the word. You are using the strictest technical definition and I am using a more colloquial one.

Where we DO agree (as opposed to Timo) is that Picard did the right thing in defending the sovereign rights of the Baku to their planet.

 

[Cepstrum]

But I still think Picard, despite his disobedience, was not rebelling against the UFP in any way except against this one issue. He had no intention of even causing unrest, except perhaps to expose Dougherty & Co.'s murky ethics.


But Darkwing Duck: I respect and understand your valid and differring view. I have had disagreements with others about this before, and I don't wish to start an argument (except about the name). I apologize for making an issue about it. Sometimes I'm just plain moronic and thoughtless.


But I still maintain there was no insurrection or even an anti-UFP rebellion!

I think we're applying slightly different definitions of the word. You are using the strictest technical definition and I am using a more colloquial one.

Where we DO agree (as opposed to Timo) is that Picard did the right thing in defending the sovereign rights of the Baku to their planet.

Yeah, I tend to get hung up on diction literalism.

And you're right: regardless of my opinion of the morality of the whole thing, I *do* believe Picard acted as he believed the principles of the UFP dictate. The two strongest arguments for that are (1) even he badly needed the Enterprise-E and its crew, he sent it away convinced that revealing the scheme to the gov't would bring them in line; and (2), after the movie, he exonerated and praised

 

[Timo]

Bullshit. The very principles of the Federation declared the Council's and Dougherty's actions to be illegal. The Federation does not steal planets from their sovereign populations.

The UFP Council is the law, as far as we know. If Picard thought otherwise, he should get his head examined. Or removed.

What gives the Federation the moral or legal right to steal the Baku planet from it's rightful owners?

The same as with any moral or legal right: they work out who gets to decide, then a decision is made, and then civilized people follow that decision. Uncivilized barbarians think they know better.

"Rightful owner"? Bah. "Self-righteous owner" might be closer to it. UFP law clearly stated that the UFP owned the planet, quite regardless of what sort of lowlife was squatting there - the movie was unambiguous about that.

The very fact that they set up the scheme the way they did shows they knew damn well that they were doing something wrong.

How so? As far as the Council was concerned, the only coverup going on was with keeping the proceedings secret from the natives themselves - a standard procedure intended for the good of said natives, again explicated as such. Apart from that, the one thing the Council was doing that could be considered a "scheme" was that they weren't advertising to the entire galaxy that they were on the verge of gaining access to the secret of eternal youth. Goes to show they had some brains. And hearts.

I'm a semi-socialist and even I know that's frakking bullshit, Timo. There ARE limits.

Indeed; numerical ones. And 600 sounds like a good number.

If the government is denied the right to possess land from 600 people for common good, then one could just as well declare complete anarchy and let the looting and raping begin.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Bullshit. The very principles of the Federation declared the Council's and Dougherty's actions to be illegal. The Federation does not steal planets from their sovereign populations.

The UFP Council is the law, as far as we know. If Picard thought otherwise, he should get his head examined. Or removed.

Not even a unanimous decree of the Council can make an illegal order legal. Picard had a legal and moral duty to refuse an order that ran contrary to the founding principles of the Federation, (a constitutional republic from all available data). His oath would be to the founding document, his duty to the people, not the particular government of the moment.

What gives the Federation the moral or legal right to steal the Baku planet from it's rightful owners?

The same as with any moral or legal right: they work out who gets to decide, then a decision is made, and then civilized people follow that decision. Uncivilized barbarians think they know better.

The Baku have sovereign rights. They weren't even ASKED if they would relocate. (Not that they would.) They were not Federation citizens, and the Federation had ZERO right to try to steal their planet. The Baku got there first. It belonged to them.

It is YOUR notion that the Federation can take any planet for any purpose it chooses at any time that is the epitome of barbarism.

"Rightful owner"? Bah. "Self-righteous owner" might be closer to it. UFP law clearly stated that the UFP owned the planet,

Show me where the Baku were Federation citizens subject to Federation law. Even then, they had rights, protected by the Federation version of the Bill of Rights (the "Guarantees").

quite regardless of what sort of lowlife was squatting there -

Yeah, they're just "Jews", right, and their planet just the Sudetenland? Their rights and lives don't matter...

You Nazi.

the movie was unambiguous about that.

What was unambiguous was that the Son'a tricked the Federation into doing their dirty work for them.

How so? As far as the Council was concerned, the only coverup going on was with keeping the proceedings secret from the natives themselves

Then Dougherty would have told Data up front what he was there to help do, and would have told Picard as well. If it was all so right and legal and proper, there was no reason for him NOT to do so...

- a standard procedure intended for the good of said natives, again explicated as such

No, what was explicated was that it was a case of "what they don't know won't hurt them"...until they started getting sick and/or old because they were no longer benefiting from the metaphasic radiation.

Apart from that, the one thing the Council was doing that could be considered a "scheme" was that they weren't advertising to the entire galaxy that they were on the verge of gaining access to the secret of eternal youth. Goes to show they had some brains. And hearts.

It goes to show that they were scheming and conniving and knew that what they were doing would never stand the scrutiny of the public. Ru'afo said as much.

I'm a semi-socialist and even I know that's frakking bullshit, Timo. There ARE limits.

Indeed; numerical ones. And 600 sounds like a good number.

Isn't all this typing on your part going to make you late for your Bundt meeting? You do have your jackboots polished, ja?

If the government is denied the right to possess land from 600 people for common good, then one could just as well declare complete anarchy and let the looting and raping begin.

 

[Cepstrum]

Hmmm. I really didn't intend to instigate an argument or bad feelings. I'm sorry.


I just don't like the misnomer of Insurrection!


But hey: if you guys don't mind discussing it, by all means go ahead. It *is* interesting to read the differing viewpoints. I see points for both, such as Darkwing mentioning that the UFP constitution would override any decision made by the current leaders. Or that Timo noted it was already a UFP planet that the Ba'ku decided to just occupy.

Ok. I do see now that it's far more complicated than I initially thought. As Darkwing noted, if it was all clear, then why hide it from Picard? But then again, what gives the 600 Ba'ku the right to occupy a life-giving, Federation planet without allowing it to be shared?

Probably the better solution would have been this: make a compromise with the Ba'ku to set aside space on the planet for people to come and be healed. In the meantime, continue studying the nature of the metaphasic particles and working with the Ba'ku to see if there is a safe way to obtain some of the particles for off-world use instead of rushing things and letting the Son'a dictate the timetable. Maybe in 10 years UFP scientists could figure out how to preserve both the particles *and* the Ba'ku. But because of the secretive nature of the project and the reliance on Son'a science, the myriad UFP scientists didn't get a chance to study it effectively. All the UFP did was send a team to observe the Ba'ku to help facilitate their relocation.

Let Starfleet guard/protect the Ba'ku while the secret is made public. Maybe a solution could've been found.

 

[DonIago]

The real punchline of the movie is that shortly after the Feds left the Ba'ku planet a different group of Son'a swooped in and finished what Ru'afo and lackeys started.

In any event, if the planet was a UFP world before the Ba'ku settled there, then the Ba'ku really had no right to the planet in the first place.

And even if the planet wasn't a UFP world, I'm not sure how we were really supposed to sympathize with their apparent unwilingness to share their planet, given there were a whopping 600 of them. I fail to see how a Fed colony on the other side of the planet would impact them.

In the end, I'm not sure what the message of this movie is actually supposed to be.

 

[Landed]

Maybe the original pitch fit the title before it was screwed over by a dozen other writers and production notes?

If I was an omnipotent time-traveler, going back and having them make the movie out of Michael Piller's heart of darkness script is on my list of things to change.

Is that script available online anywhere? I'd love to read it.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Or that Timo noted it was already a UFP planet that the Ba'ku decided to just occupy.

There is nothing to suggest that is at all the case. In fact, Dougherty made a point of saying that no one wanted to live there because of the problems getting to and from the planet caused by the Briar Patch.

Ok. I do see now that it's far more complicated than I initially thought. As Darkwing noted, if it was all clear, then why hide it from Picard? But then again, what gives the 600 Ba'ku the right to occupy a life-giving, Federation planet without allowing it to be shared?

Aside from again assuming that it was a Federation planet, the Baku, being the original settlers of said planet, would have superior sovereign rights as the first settlers. There was no indigenous sentient life in evidence at all in the movie, so no other group would have a superior claim.

Probably the better solution would have been this: make a compromise with the Ba'ku to set aside space on the planet for people to come and be healed. In the meantime, continue studying the nature of the metaphasic particles and working with the Ba'ku to see if there is a safe way to obtain some of the particles for off-world

Which is what Picard suggested, and I would support.

 

[Agenda]

One of the Achilles' heels of this flick was that I didn't feel particularly sorry for this group of beautiful, healthy - overall - perfect people about to get their perfect way of life taken away. Oh boo hoo. I'm not saying I'm in a morally defensible position. I'm not saying I'm not. I'm just saying how I felt when watching it. I didn't feel sorry for them, which is kind of a bad thing if you want something to cheer about when the heroes begin their "insurrection".

 

[darkwing_duck1]

^What does that say about us as a people, really? I know people who would say the exact same thing.

It is worrisome that our ability to care about the plight of someone who is being abused by a system is commensurate with our ability to identify with the person or persons involved.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You guys are right.

There was a lot more of the movie that didn't make sense besides the title. I still don't get what right 600 Ba'ku had to a planet they occupied a mere 200 years ago, when moving them could save billions.

Or the Feds could have asked to build a resort on the planet far away from their colony, I mean the Ba'ku seemed like nice and reasonable people just isolationist.

And they weren't a prewarp people. I also don't think moving them would have necessarily harmed them: put them first in line for the metaphasic magical healing stuff.

Except the TNG era Prime Directive applies to warp capable species as well.

It'd be different of that was their home planet, they were prewarp, hadn't kicked the Son'a off (just because the Son'a happened to like technology)

Um the Ba'ku kicked the Son'a out because the Son'a tried to take over the Ba'ku colony and it didn't sound like they were doing it democratically.

Picard et al. were rebelling (as far as they knew) against a specific order from a single superior officer.

Umm, it was a bit more than that. Picard only started rebelling after he had confronted Dougherty on the issue of the cloaked transport he had found. In that confrontation, Dougherty made it clear that the UFP government was supporting the operation involving that transport, and that Picard would be obligated by his Starfleet oath to go along with the moving of the Ba'ku.

Yeah and then the Federation council changed their minds and dropped the plan.

Picard knowingly rebelled against the UFP government and the legal orders that government had issued him. He didn't "insurrect" in the sense of directly trying to topple that government, but he certainly defied that government. There was no way he could pretend that Dougherty's actions or orders to him would have been illegal.

Yet protesting the order got the council to change their minds and thats IF Dougherty wasn't LYING about them supporting it remember we only have his word about that and the council changed their minds pretty fast.

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?" That's the point. If you can do it to 6 or 60 or 600 you can do it to 6000, 600000, 6000000...you can do it to anybody.

Which is complete bullshit. If you jaywalk, does that mean you are capable of killing a million people?

A single Ba'ku chanting "Hell, no, I won't go!" on top of his hill of plenty is nothing but a criminal. Three minivan-fulls of them ain't much different. A thousand people defending their lifestyle is politically relevant, though. One simply has to think in terms of numbers whenever one considers social issues: the mere individual cannot, must not be respected if a society is to be held together.

So only the majority is allowed to have rights.

Lets look at somethings that used that resoning

-Slavery
-The Trail of Tears
-The anti-Jew laws in 1940s Germany
-Segregation

Yeah the Federation really should follow these examples.

Timo Saloniemi

Timo: I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your position. Are you agreeing with me or Darkwing Duck?

I think another important factor to consider is that it was a UFP planet that the advanced Ba'ku occupied a mere *200* years ago.

No, no it was not, 200 years previously it was in the region between the Federation and Klingon Empire, and 100 years after that was possibly Klingon territory seeing as Kor fought the Romulans for it.

 

[Cepstrum]

Maybe the original pitch fit the title before it was screwed over by a dozen other writers and production notes?

If I was an omnipotent time-traveler, going back and having them make the movie out of Michael Piller's heart of darkness script is on my list of things to change.

Is that script available online anywhere? I'd love to read it.

Yes. It's available at Star Trek Minutiae's site:

st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/fc.txt

 

[Cepstrum]

Ok, guys. You win! I'm unable to defend my position. That's why I've since changed to thinking it'd be best for Starfleet to protect the Ba'ku, set up a distant, reasonable place in the meantime for healing, and open it up for *all* UFP scientists to study until they can discover a way to extract some healing particles while still preseving the Ba'ku. I'm sure the latter wouldn't mind.

The mistake was all the secrecy and relying on Son'a scientists to do a rush job. Sure, it'd be faster and easier to just remove the Ba'ku, but at least let all medical scientists study it and work with the Ba'ku on coming up with an acceptable compromise. Leave the evil, greedy Son'a out of it. It was in UFP space and a UFP planet; that's why the Son'a had to try to work with the UFP at all. Just tell the Son'a to go away. Use force if necessary.


My *only* issue is that Insurrection was a poor/misleading name!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Ok, guys. You win! I'm unable to defend my position. That's why I've since changed to thinking it'd be best for Starfleet to protect the Ba'ku, set up a distant, reasonable place in the meantime for healing, and open it up for *all* UFP scientists to study until they can discover a way to extract some healing particles while still preseving the Ba'ku. I'm sure the latter wouldn't mind.

The mistake was all the secrecy and relying on Son'a scientists to do a rush job. Sure, it'd be faster and easier to just remove the Ba'ku, but at least let all medical scientists study it and work with the Ba'ku on coming up with an acceptable compromise. Leave the evil, greedy Son'a out of it. It was in UFP space and a UFP planet; that's why the Son'a had to try to work with the UFP at all. Just tell the Son'a to go away. Use force if necessary.

Or in the case of the Son'a do what Picard did and try to see if it is possible to get the Ba'ku and Son'a to come together, move past their differences, and begin to heal the rift between them.

 

[Cepstrum]

Ok, guys. You win! I'm unable to defend my position. That's why I've since changed to thinking it'd be best for Starfleet to protect the Ba'ku, set up a distant, reasonable place in the meantime for healing, and open it up for *all* UFP scientists to study until they can discover a way to extract some healing particles while still preseving the Ba'ku. I'm sure the latter wouldn't mind.

The mistake was all the secrecy and relying on Son'a scientists to do a rush job. Sure, it'd be faster and easier to just remove the Ba'ku, but at least let all medical scientists study it and work with the Ba'ku on coming up with an acceptable compromise. Leave the evil, greedy Son'a out of it. It was in UFP space and a UFP planet; that's why the Son'a had to try to work with the UFP at all. Just tell the Son'a to go away. Use force if necessary.

Or in the case of the Son'a do what Picard did and try to see if it is possible to get the Ba'ku and Son'a to come together, move past their differences, and begin to heal the rift between them.

Yep. I hadn't seen the film in a very long time, so I read most of the final script. Picard *did* suggest that, as well as implore for more time for scientists to study it, and knew if he exposed the scheme to the UFP (it *was* a UFP planet), the Son'a would've been stopped.

The Son'a complained that they were too far gone/old/sick to benefit from merely living on the planet. So the whole urgency thing boiled down to an internal dispute between the Ba'ku and Son'a: who would get to benefit and continue immortality until UFP science evolved to get the particles while preserving the planet.

Dougherty and the "friends" he *claimed* to have had at the UFP leadership was clearly in the wrong. The Son'a were known to be big allies of the Dominion (producing the White for them during the war). Had this scheme of cooperating with the enemy to give them life instead of the Ba'ku been known, it wouldn't have gone through. (And it didn't once Starfleet learned about it.)

That leaves just one problem: there was NO INSURRECTION!

 

[Peach Wookiee]

DarkwingFan, you have hereby earned an infraction. Comments to me if you have any complaints.

 

[Gepard]

DarkwingFan...

Who?

 

[DonIago]

^Kind of glad I wasn't the only one who thought that...

 

[zar]

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?" That's the point. If you can do it to 6 or 60 or 600 you can do it to 6000, 600000, 6000000...you can do it to anybody.

Picard's argument would be easier to accept if the planet wasn't so incredibly overpowered (the fountain of youth) and the admiral hadn't established that "there is no other way" to tap into that power. It's hard to see the admiral as selfish and wrong after just learning that basically mortality is a disease and a handful of people on a planet are hogging the cure while trillions throughout the galaxy suffer. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the 600.

The whole thing would have made more sense just by changing that one detail of the impossibly magical planet...