What in Gods name did Harry Kim do in Voyager?

[JustKate]

TheGodBen!

I have to make a confession, I like Harry too. He was my favourite character when I first saw the show as a teenager and I never gave up on him while the show was on air. Fundamentally he was a good character for the show, but the writers treated him poorly and he ended up being a joke.

Luckily for him, along came Mayweather and he usurped Kim's position as the most criminally underused Trek character.

So young GodBen identified with young Harry? Aw. That's kind of cute. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm old enough to be your mother, and I can say something's kind of cute if I want to.

But back on topic...yeah. It's almost as though the writers saw Harry only as the naive young officer, believed he had no other niche to fill, and were therefore reluctant to let him become something else. Apparently every DQ-trapped ship needs a certain quotient of naive-young-officer-ishness?

 

[kimc]

TheGodBen!

GodBen
GodBen
GodBen
GodBen



Back to topic, Harry is an okay character. There are certainly worse things to get worked up about.

 

[ALF]

Great thread! My two cents:
Harry Kim was a duplication of the mistake they made with Wesley Crusher. And don't get me wrong, I do like Wes and Kim, but the green about the gills, super pumped to follow orders, I'll be a goodie-goodie and save the day DIDN'T WORK for Wesley.

Wesley's best stuff was after he left the show. The First Duty, The Game, Parallels. All terrific.

And the list of amazing things Harry did that exodus posted is a very comprehensive one, but the title of the thread suggests the fact that no one remembered. It wasn't very memorable.

They should have hardened Harry up on his trip home. I am glad they didn't kill him off. But he should have grown balls, Starfleet issue if necessary.

 

[kimc]

Great thread! My two cents:
Harry Kim was a duplication of the mistake they made with Wesley Crusher.

This reminds me of something Ron Moore said in one of the BSG commentaries about adolescent males who watch sci fi are never interested in the characters that resemble themselves. They're more interested in the Adamas and Picards - characters who they can aspire to be like someday. They already know they're not Wesley's or Harry's today.

Not being an adolescent male myself I'm not sure if this is accurate but I'm interested in opinions.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Maybe Harry Kim should've just made it home by himself.

Tested the slipstream drive and *poof* he's back, but the technology is too unstable to go back and get Voyager. Have him work on a way to get Voyager back and replace Barclay as a recurring guest star. It would've made more sense.

 

[exodus]

Harry built more than half the new technology on Voyager.
He built the slipsteam drive.
He built Astrometrix.
He built the the time portal device in "Time & Again".
He was the only one that could read Borg.
He was only one capable to rebuild the EMH from scratch.
"Non Sequiter" showed Harry was gifted when it came to shuttle design.
Harry expanded the holodecks in "the Killing Game".

All true, but if Harry hadn't been on the show then B'Elanna would have invented all those things instead. Its not like as if Braga and Menosky would have come up with the plot for Timeless and then go "shoot, we can't make this episode because we don't have a character on the ship who can design a quantum slipstream drive".

What did Harry bring to the show as a character? Doctor Shmully allowed for the exploration of issues relating to holograms, B'Elanna brought some interesting stories about self-identity and even Neelix brought some good stories about his troubled soul. But Harry? He brought a naivety about life that never went away, and the only two times when his character truly shined was in the alternate future stories of Timeless and Endgame, both of which never happened.

I agree with that GodBen guy. Yes, Harry did things, but only because they had to have somebody do them, and it was, like, his character's turn or something. He generally - and mind you, I rather liked Harry, which is what made it a shame - acted more like a plot contrivance than a real person. There weren't very many situations in which a crisis would come up and I'd think to myself, "Only Harry can solve this." Most of the time, there were actually other people who could have done it just as well or better (e.g., Seven or B'Elanna or Janeway).

Harry...just never really came together as a character. The idea of having a naive young officer on board as this ship traversed an unknown area of space was a fine one, but the problem is that that was almost all he was. In order to continue to make him interesting, the writers needed to let him grow up and develop, and...well, they didn't. And that's why he became so boring, IMO.

That's because Voyager was a "safe" ship.
All the events that might have made Harry mature or even jade him, never happened. So Harry never grew because he never had many life changing experences to allow growth. Even on Voyager he was sheltered.

 

[Eyes]

Great thread! My two cents:
Harry Kim was a duplication of the mistake they made with Wesley Crusher.

This reminds me of something Ron Moore said in one of the BSG commentaries about adolescent males who watch sci fi are never interested in the characters that resemble themselves. They're more interested in the Adamas and Picards - characters who they can aspire to be like someday. They already know they're not Wesley's or Harry's today.

Not being an adolescent male myself I'm not sure if this is accurate but I'm interested in opinions.

As an adolescent male, I actually prefer watching people like Harry, or even Wesley , than Picard or Adama, simply because their naivety seems to make them excited about life, and I can identify with them more, while the older ones are almost weary of it, and sometimes get a bit boring. But then I'm probably the exception rather than the norm...

 

[exodus]

Great thread! My two cents:
Harry Kim was a duplication of the mistake they made with Wesley Crusher.

This reminds me of something Ron Moore said in one of the BSG commentaries about adolescent males who watch sci fi are never interested in the characters that resemble themselves. They're more interested in the Adamas and Picards - characters who they can aspire to be like someday. They already know they're not Wesley's or Harry's today.

Not being an adolescent male myself I'm not sure if this is accurate but I'm interested in opinions.

It's the same reason why young boys and some men want to be Wolverine or Han Solo over Luke Skywalker or Cyclops. So yes, I do believe there is some truth to that.

 

[JustKate]

^^ I liked it in the beginning, too, but the voyage lasted seven years. Seven! years. He should have grown up at least seven years' worth in that time. You probably did, Eyes.

 

[exodus]

^^ I liked it in the beginning, too, but the voyage lasted seven years. Seven! years. He should have grown up at least seven years' worth in that time. You probably did, Eyes.

Some folks never grow up.
Look at members of our own sci-fi culture as an example. There are grown men and women that still collect toys to hold onto that part of their childhood. More than half the toys they buy will have no long term value because they're mass produced, yet they still do it because it retains the young kid in them. Grown men arguing about Transformers or G.I. Joe films because it deviated from the cartoon they knew. Anybody not a member of our culture would find that immature. I mean no insult in saying that but many Harry Kim's walk among us.

 

[kes7]

All true, but if Harry hadn't been on the show then B'Elanna would have invented all those things instead. Its not like as if Braga and Menosky would have come up with the plot for Timeless and then go "shoot, we can't make this episode because we don't have a character on the ship who can design a quantum slipstream drive".

What did Harry bring to the show as a character? Doctor Shmully allowed for the exploration of issues relating to holograms, B'Elanna brought some interesting stories about self-identity and even Neelix brought some good stories about his troubled soul. But Harry? He brought a naivety about life that never went away, and the only two times when his character truly shined was in the alternate future stories of Timeless and Endgame, both of which never happened.

I agree with that GodBen guy. Yes, Harry did things, but only because they had to have somebody do them, and it was, like, his character's turn or something. He generally - and mind you, I rather liked Harry, which is what made it a shame - acted more like a plot contrivance than a real person. There weren't very many situations in which a crisis would come up and I'd think to myself, "Only Harry can solve this." Most of the time, there were actually other people who could have done it just as well or better (e.g., Seven or B'Elanna or Janeway).

Harry...just never really came together as a character. The idea of having a naive young officer on board as this ship traversed an unknown area of space was a fine one, but the problem is that that was almost all he was. In order to continue to make him interesting, the writers needed to let him grow up and develop, and...well, they didn't. And that's why he became so boring, IMO.

That's because Voyager was a "safe" ship.
All the events that might have made Harry mature or even jade him, never happened. So Harry never grew because he never had many life changing experences to allow growth. Even on Voyager he was sheltered.

His secret crush Lyndsay died. Lyndsay came back and loved him up. Lyndsay left.

After Vidiians invaded and killed/violated the crew, the ship blew up, killing almost everyone aboard. Only he and Ensign Wildman's baby survived due to some pretty heroic actions by Harry. Sure, they got to live on a ship full of duplicates of the VOY crew (or were THEY the duplicates?), but still ... that could be scarring if one thought about it too much.

How about The Chute? Or being eaten alive from the inside out in Scorpion?

Any number of Very Bad Things happened to Harry that could have turned him darker or helped him grow, but he just stayed kind of ... there.

 

[exodus]

I agree with that GodBen guy. Yes, Harry did things, but only because they had to have somebody do them, and it was, like, his character's turn or something. He generally - and mind you, I rather liked Harry, which is what made it a shame - acted more like a plot contrivance than a real person. There weren't very many situations in which a crisis would come up and I'd think to myself, "Only Harry can solve this." Most of the time, there were actually other people who could have done it just as well or better (e.g., Seven or B'Elanna or Janeway).

Harry...just never really came together as a character. The idea of having a naive young officer on board as this ship traversed an unknown area of space was a fine one, but the problem is that that was almost all he was. In order to continue to make him interesting, the writers needed to let him grow up and develop, and...well, they didn't. And that's why he became so boring, IMO.

That's because Voyager was a "safe" ship.
All the events that might have made Harry mature or even jade him, never happened. So Harry never grew because he never had many life changing experences to allow growth. Even on Voyager he was sheltered.

His secret crush Lyndsay died. Lyndsay came back and loved him up. Lyndsay left.

After Vidiians invaded and killed/violated the crew, the ship blew up, killing almost everyone aboard. Only he and Ensign Wildman's baby survived due to some pretty heroic actions by Harry. Sure, they got to live on a ship full of duplicates of the VOY crew (or were THEY the duplicates?), but still ... that could be scarring if one thought about it too much.

How about The Chute? Or being eaten alive from the inside out in Scorpion?

Any number of Very Bad Things happened to Harry that could have turned him darker or helped him grow, but he just stayed kind of ... there.

Which means none of them had any affect on him.
Janeway even told him once that she was over protective of him due to his youth. Tom always fought for him, Be'Lanna did a little too. Chakotay even sent Seven(a non-Officer) to watch over him. He was always sheltered because nothing he went thru ever had any lasting effects.

Besides, wasn't one of Voyager's themes: If your were a good person and always did the right thing, good things would come to you? It was the metaphor they really drove home in "Equinox". So Harry being good and innocent never became jaded or cynical. Dull yes but that's what he was supposed to represent.

 

[Bluesteel]

I agree with that GodBen guy.

TheGodBen!

I have to make a confession, I like Harry too. He was my favourite character when I first saw the show as a teenager and I never gave up on him while the show was on air. Fundamentally he was a good character for the show, but the writers treated him poorly and he ended up being a joke.

Luckily for him, along came Mayweather and he usurped Kim's position as the most criminally underused Trek character.

I liked him too. That is what pissed me off. He was the blue eyed kid in the bunch. An Asian man that wasn't a sterotype and a naive young man who found Seven of Nine hot but couldn't do anything to move it forward. That's ME!!! Minus the Sci Fi storyline.


I mean Damar started out like Kim. He was always following around Dukat and believed in everything he did. Suddenly Damar mans up then he changes the future of Cardassia. While Harry Kim is standing in the ops keeping the panel dust free.


One of the saddest episode is when the entire voyager crew minus him and the doctor are abducted. Two people in the entire ship and the Doctor steals his limelight.

The saddest moment in the entire show for him is when Chakotay can't decide who should be in charge. A Starfleet trained HUMAN or a Hologram who has a habit of malfunctioning or being turned off.

 

[JustKate]

Which means none of them had any affect on him.

Janeway even told him once that she was over protective of him due to his youth. Tom always fought for him, Be'Lanna did a little too. Chakotay even sent Seven(a non-Officer) to watch over him. He was always sheltered because nothing he went thru ever had any lasting effects.

Besides, wasn't one of Voyager's themes: If your were a good person and always did the right thing, good things would come to you? It was the metaphor they really drove home in "Equinox". So Harry being good and innocent never became jaded or cynical.

Yes, but they should have affected him. At least I think they should have. They would have affected most thoughtful people, and Harry was thoughtful. That's the point, really: He should have been affected, in ways both good and bad, and he wasn't, or if he was, he didn't show it to us viewers.

It's possible to be good (and maybe even innocent, depending on your definition of "innocent") and still grow up. Not all adults are jaded or cynical. I wouldn't call Picard "jaded," for example - or Janeway, for that matter. Or my mother, to bring in a real-life example.

 

[exodus]

Which means none of them had any affect on him.

Janeway even told him once that she was over protective of him due to his youth. Tom always fought for him, Be'Lanna did a little too. Chakotay even sent Seven(a non-Officer) to watch over him. He was always sheltered because nothing he went thru ever had any lasting effects.

Besides, wasn't one of Voyager's themes: If your were a good person and always did the right thing, good things would come to you? It was the metaphor they really drove home in "Equinox". So Harry being good and innocent never became jaded or cynical.

Yes, but they should have affected him. At least I think they should have. They would have affected most thoughtful people, and Harry was thoughtful. That's the point, really: He should have been affected, in ways both good and bad, and he wasn't, or if he was, he didn't show it to us viewers.

It's possible to be good (and maybe even innocent, depending on your definition of "innocent") and still grow up. Not all adults are jaded or cynical. I wouldn't call Picard "jaded," for example - or Janeway, for that matter. Or my mother, to bring in a real-life example.

Trust me, I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm just explaining why I think the writting staff never matured him.

BTW thanks for the correction. "Mature" was the word I should have used and not "Jaded".

 

[Odo You Didn't!]

The writers just didn't bother with him. I think it would have been cool if he'd totally flipped and gone off the rails, and we'd seen something dark from him, something to show he'd been affected by the actual scary things that had happened to him, like the 8472 incident, for example.

And also, I wanted him to freak out when Lyndsay Ballard came back. It was all "Oh, it's really you," whereas, to my mind, any normal person would have been like "SAY WHAAAAAT?"

 

[JustKate]

^ ^ Oh, I see. You think they did it on purpose, Exodus? Could be. I tend to think it was just out of convenience, but you could be right.

As for "jaded," it's a great word. It fit Tom at times, for example...and Tuvok, too, maybe.

 

[exodus]

^ ^ Oh, I see. You think they did it on purpose, Exodus? Could be. I tend to think it was just out of convenience, but you could be right.

Yeah, I do.
I think Harry was more of a representation of something than an actual true to life character, like the rough draft for Kes was supposed to be.

 

[The Badger]

Then Braga came up with the idea of Voyager rescuing a Borg and having them join the main cast, Berman loved the idea and decided to make her a "Borg Babe" as a means of drawing in more teenage male viewers.

As I understood it, the original plan was to get rid of Harry and have a male Borg as a replacement.

It was only after they decided to keep Wang (for the reasons you describe) that they chose to make the Borg character female, and Kes was unceremoniously booted from the show.

 

[TheGodBen]

So young GodBen...

TheGodBen!

GodBen
GodBen
GodBen
GodBen

This reminds me of something Ron Moore said in one of the BSG commentaries about adolescent males who watch sci fi are never interested in the characters that resemble themselves. They're more interested in the Adamas and Picards - characters who they can aspire to be like someday. They already know they're not Wesley's or Harry's today.

Not being an adolescent male myself I'm not sure if this is accurate but I'm interested in opinions.

I don't know, I'm a god-like, heroic badass, as you're all well aware, but I still enjoy me some Sisko.

Okay, so maybe I'm closer to the Harry Kim type and that's why I wanted to see him grow more, because I want to grow as a person too. Since Harry never grew I now have no aspirations to grow as a person, so I'm stuck with being me.

Besides, wasn't one of Voyager's themes: If your were a good person and always did the right thing, good things would come to you? It was the metaphor they really drove home in "Equinox". So Harry being good and innocent never became jaded or cynical. Dull yes but that's what he was supposed to represent.

But Harry always did the right thing and little good seemed to come of it. He died three times in 4 years, he always lucked out with women, and he was turned into a joke that the rest of the crew made fun of.

Poor, dumb Harry.

I mean Damar started out like Kim. He was always following around Dukat and believed in everything he did. Suddenly Damar mans up then he changes the future of Cardassia. While Harry Kim is standing in the ops keeping the panel dust free.

Kim reminds me of Gaeta from nuBSG. They both started out inexperienced junior officers serving beside the captain on the command deck, and they both had a background in science. But Gaeta grew significantly as a character during the show's run and he ended up making a powerful stand in the final season. Gaeta's character arc is one of the best handled things about nuBSG, whereas Kim's character arc... yeah, what character arc?