What If: Voting on which fan films are officially canon

[Matthew Raymond]

Yes, if the IP fell into the public domain, canon might become meaningless.

Perhaps meaningless to you. Canon can be immensely useful for cooperative fictional efforts, which is the point of having a community canon in the first place. People build a mental model of the world that a fictional franchise represents. Discontinuities between stories that are suppose to be set in the same universe are confusing and jarring to fans, and for those who want to create stories that preserve continuity, it can be a challenge to determine which part of what story to make continuous with your own story.

Or not. Look at Sherlock Holmes. The original stories are canon. The rest? Your choice.

This is an interesting pick, seeing as the Sherlock Holmes stories are going to fall entirely into public domain in 2023.

In theory, some could start a book series called "Sherlock Holmes: Alien Hunter". Would this series have its own canon? Could there not possibly be an indeterminate number of derivative Sherlock Holmes canons? (Not that there has to be One True Canon, so long as each canon has value for its respective community.)

But the idea of a panel determining legitimacy is snobbery.

The term "Legitimacy" is meaningless. The community is free to determine what's in their own canon, and another community is free to create their own separate canon and make their own choices. I'm basically advocating for open source continuity.

Any community effort is going to require administration of rules. These very forums have rules. Are the moderators "snobs" for enforcing those rules? There seems to be an attitude among some in this thread that they are above canon, and that those that value canon are to be pitied. You're impugning the motives of panel members that don't even exist yet, solely because they might choose to participate in the creation of a canon you look down upon. That doesn't sound like humility to me. It sounds like something else.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

If canon was decided by "value," that might mean removing Spock's Brain from canon.

Hell, no. It is genius.

The Star Trek Axanar--er, "Fan Committee", will have to pry Spock's Brain from my cold dead hands.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Perhaps meaningless to you. Canon can be immensely useful for cooperative fictional efforts, which is the point of having a community canon in the first place. People build a mental model of the world that a fictional franchise represents. Discontinuities between stories that are suppose to be set in the same universe are confusing and jarring to fans, and for those who want to create stories that preserve continuity, it can be a challenge to determine which part of what story to make continuous with your own story.


This is an interesting pick, seeing as the Sherlock Holmes stories are going to fall entirely into public domain in 2023.

In theory, some could start a book series called "Sherlock Holmes: Alien Hunter". Would this series have its own canon? Could there not possibly be an indeterminate number of derivative Sherlock Holmes canons? (Not that there has to be One True Canon, so long as each canon has value for its respective community.)


The term "Legitimacy" is meaningless. The community is free to determine what's in their own canon, and another community is free to create their own separate canon and make their own choices. I'm basically advocating for open source continuity.

Any community effort is going to require administration of rules. These very forums have rules. Are the moderators "snobs" for enforcing those rules? There seems to be an attitude among some in this thread that they are above canon, and that those that value canon are to be pitied. You're impugning the motives of panel members that don't even exist yet, solely because they might choose to participate in the creation of a canon you look down upon. That doesn't sound like humility to me. It sounds like something else.

So if you have continuity for Sherlock Holmes: Alien Hunter another for Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice, and so on, what exactly would a committee do? Are they being tasked with reconciling between them all?

If I create something why should a community decide anything about it?

 

[BillJ]

Any community effort is going to require administration of rules.

I'd rather spend my time enjoying Star Trek.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I'd rather spend my time enjoying Star Trek.

Seriously. This whole scheme is just turning fandom into a bureaucracy. Fandom is supposed to be casual and fun, not administrative. Good lord.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Seriously. This whole scheme is just turning fandom into a bureaucracy. Fandom is supposed to be casual and fun, not administrative. Good lord.

And, I would add, inclusive.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

So if you have continuity for Sherlock Holmes: Alien Hunter another for Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice, and so on, what exactly would a committee do? Are they being tasked with reconciling between them all?

Every distinct community could have its own continuity and its own process. The Alien Hunter and Miami Vice communities may each have their own separate canon processes to manage canon for each community. People who like both series might form their own community that combines the two, excluding a few stories that make the two continuities incompatible, and adding crossover stories that tie the two together. Over time, the pure SH: Miami Vice series may die on the vine, while the SH: Alien Hunter may take a dark turn that turns off the crossover community. The SH: Crossover community might them to stop accepting the new Alien Hunter stories and go off on their own direction, and both remaining series may flourish independently from each other.

If I create something why should a community decide anything about it?

If you don't care about what is considered canon within that community, don't submit your work to their community canon. They cannot include your work against your will, and they cannot be forced as a community to accept your work against the will of the majority.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Seriously. This whole scheme is just turning fandom into a bureaucracy. Fandom is supposed to be casual and fun, not administrative. Good lord.

What do you care? The entire process is voluntary. You don't have to vote. You don't have to be on the panel. You can just sit on your tuffet and binge watch Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice. It's only the people who care who do the work, and there's nothing stopping you from doing your own non-canon film. You just wouldn't be able to say it was a "Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice" film.

 

[BillJ]

What do you care? The entire process is voluntary.

Because, the way you've pitched it, it would have a measure of control over the new official material. That's a non-starter for most folks.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

What do you care? The entire process is voluntary. You don't have to vote. You don't have to be on the panel. You can just sit on your tuffet and binge watch Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice. It's only the people who care who do the work, and there's nothing stopping you from doing your own non-canon film. You just wouldn't be able to say it was a "Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice" film.

Because then I as a fan have to talk about it in your weird Fan Committee's terms and I have to keep up with all these bizarro proceedings and whatever short film a panel member made that year like I'm a paralegal. That's really what canon is about. It exists so that when fans are having a discussion about the franchise, we are talking about the same body of work and we're all operating on the same playing field. It's so that if someone has a question about X, people give an answer from Y episode, not Y obscure 20 year old tie-in comic book. It parses out people and events given in the tv shows and films, and what has been given everywhere else.

Star Trek is an IP that belongs to CBS and Paramount. This navel-gazing fan committee stuff is nonsensical so long as copyright law exists. And the "shows and movies" canon standard is simple, understandable, and it's worked for 50 years. I don't want to get dragged back into this nonsense, but that's just the way I see it and it doesn't look like there are too many fans getting excited about canon panels anyway.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Because then I as a fan have to talk about it in your weird Fan Committee's terms[...]

The panel doesn't decide the terms. They can propose changes to the terms, but those have to pass a vote.

[...]and I have to keep up with all these bizarro proceedings and whatever short film a panel member made that year like I'm a paralegal. That's really what canon is about. It exists so that when fans are having a discussion about the franchise, we are talking about the same body of work and we're all operating on the same playing field. It's so that if someone has a question about X, people give an answer from Y episode, not Y obscure 20 year old tie-in comic book. It parses out people and events given in the tv shows and films, and what has been given everywhere else.

Since everything in the community canon is submitted and all notable conflicts are documented and resolved, the canon will be well documented and all submissions will be available from a central source. With the right server software, it would be no more difficult than watching a video playlist on YouTube. Heck, it would probably be better documented than current Star Trek canon.

Star Trek is an IP that belongs to CBS and Paramount. This navel-gazing fan committee stuff is nonsensical so long as copyright law exists.

I'll admit that this discussion is of little consequence for Star Trek specifically, but you can't say the same about other franchises. Sherlock Holmes is a potential real-life example, as are many other books and media that are already in the public domain.

And the "shows and movies" canon standard is simple, understandable, and it's worked for 50 years.

Don't kid yourself. In the early years, there was NO canon standard. Gene Roddenberry basically just made things up as he went along. The whole idea that the shows and movies are canon is something retroactively imposed, albeit probably for the better. That doesn't mean it was an ideal way to handle canon. I would argue that a handful of those TV episodes are best forgotten. (I'm looking at you, Code of Honor!)

I don't want to get dragged back into this nonsense, but that's just the way I see it and it doesn't look like there are too many fans getting excited about canon panels anyway.

You'll find me unreceptive to a bandwagon fallacy. I wouldn't be posting about canon on a Star Trek forum if I feared for my popularity.

 

[urbandefault]

You'd probably have better luck pitching this idea to the Axanar fan group.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

You'll find me unreceptive to a bandwagon fallacy.

Oh like determining what should be canon based on quality as voted on by a subcommittee.

 

[BillJ]

You'd probably have better luck pitching this idea to the Axanar fan group.

Sounds like something that would come directly from the Axanar fan groups, or LFIM, himself.

 

[Professor Zoom]

What do you care? The entire process is voluntary. You don't have to vote. You don't have to be on the panel. You can just sit on your tuffet and binge watch Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice. It's only the people who care who do the work, and there's nothing stopping you from doing your own non-canon film. You just wouldn't be able to say it was a "Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice" film.

Why couldn't I say it's a Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice film? If no one owns the rights, then no one has the right to say it's not.

 

[Steve Roby]

The only canon that has meaning and practical purpose is one that's (a) easily understood and explained and (b) enforced by someone who has the power to enforce it. The old Star Wars "canon," for example, failed on both counts, because it had multiple layers of canon and because George Lucas didn't give a crap about it. This canon community council also fails on both points.

 

[Pindar]

I have made it this far through the thread and really can't understand why you want to homogenize and hobble fan creativity?

Even as a hypothetical I see no point in this idea. Is the point to stop making it fun?

 

[Matthew Raymond]

You'll find me unreceptive to a bandwagon fallacy. I wouldn't be posting about canon on a Star Trek forum if I feared for my popularity.

Oh like determining what should be canon based on quality as voted on by a subcommittee.

Are you suggesting that voting in inherently a bandwagon fallacy?

 

[Matthew Raymond]

BTW, if voting is a Bandwagon fallacy, isn't one person making the same decision an Appeal to Authority?

Sounds like something that would come directly from the Axanar fan groups, or LFIM, himself.

I'd have to take your word for it. I honestly wouldn't know. Seems like an Ad Hominem attack, though.

Why couldn't I say it's a Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice film?

Trademark law. I suspect there may not be a trademark on Sherlock Holmes (at least not related to TV and movies, although merchandise is a different matter), but someone can file for a trademark on "Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice". (Assuming the trademark on "Miami Vice" has lapsed. Come to think of it, "Sherlock Holmes: Alien Hunter" would have been a better example in this case. Trademarks are tricky.) The non-profit organization governing the community canon would hold all relevant trademarks. All trademarks not related to branding ("Captain Kirk", "Klingons", et cetera) would be automatically licensed to fan films, regardless of canonicity, so long as the films identify themselves as fan films. Branding would be reserved for canon works so that they may be distinguished from other works. Decanonized works are grandfathered.

If no one owns the rights, then no one has the right to say it's not.

No one has (or rather, will have in 2023) the copyrights to Sherlock Holmes, not derivative works produced by fans. They'll likely have copyright on their works for 95 years. Also, someone can file for a trademark on "Sherlock Holmes: Miami Vice" (assuming there isn't already a trademark on "Miami Vice", but lets say there isn't)

The only canon that has meaning and practical purpose is one that's (a) easily understood and explained and (b) enforced by someone who has the power to enforce it. The old Star Wars "canon," for example, failed on both counts, because it had multiple layers of canon and because George Lucas didn't give a crap about it. This canon community council also fails on both points.

A) It's easily understood and explained because all submissions would be available from a central source and all documentation of canon would be available from the same source. Just go to the non-profit's Web site, watch the episodes/films and read the canon documentation. That's actually easier than what we have with Star Trek now.

B) The non-profit organization has the power to enforce trademarks and to enforce copyright on behalf of the submitters. People falsely using continuity branding can be sued.

I have made it this far through the thread and really can't understand why you want to homogenize and hobble fan creativity?

How is it any less hobbled than it is now?
Can you have your fan film accepted into Star Trek canon? No.
Can you make a fan film as long as a Star Trek episode without potentially being sued? No.
Can you create a fan series without being sued? No.

My system doesn't require fan films to be canon. The only real requirement is that they post a simple disclaimer that it's a fan film and that the work does not reflect the views of the governing non-profit, similar to the disclaimer in the current Star Trek Fan Film Guidelines. In ever other respect, my system is less restrictive. Yet because you have the option of making your fan film canon, which you didn't have before at all, it's more creatively restrictive because...???

Even as a hypothetical I see no point in this idea. Is the point to stop making it fun?

What is the scenario where you're currently having fun now that wouldn't exist under the system I'm proposing?

 

[BillJ]

Seems like an Ad Hominem attack, though.

Since you won't take preference or simple logic, not much else left.