What if the Borg were made as originally intended - insectoids

[Temis the Vorta]

The Goa'uld could have been scarier if they'd been smarter and worked together instead of squabbling with each other and diminishing their power through in-fighting. Also, Stargate never did settle on how to portray them: were they insane because they accumulated too many memories? Or were they just opportunistic slugs who got too big for their britches? Were some nuts and others not?

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^Yeah, some were nuts and some weren't (or at least less nuts). For example, Apophis seemed to believe he was a god while Ba'al actually laughed about it and knew full well he was just an opportunistic slugweaselsnake. Hey, I just coined a word. Yeah, more consistency would be better. Curse you, Villain Decay! Atlantis had it too, the Wraith were much scarier in the first few episodes. And so did the Borg, which they would still have experienced if they were bugs.

 

[Neutral Zone]

All I can say is if the Borg were intended to be bugs, then they skipped a hell of a lot of evolution and we need to make one hell of a potent bug spray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Anwar]

The problems with the Borg are thus:

1) TNG overpowered them too much, it wrote them into a corner. Frankly, they should have all died in BOBW and that would be it for the Borg. Having an enemy that it nigh invulnerable to all your weaponry, and then using up all other alternatives like natural forces (the solar flare) left subsequent writers with nothing to work with. I mean, VOY created a new enemy that could defeat the Borg in conventional ways (The 8472 aliens) and the response is that showing the Borg being beaten in such a way emasculated them. Clearly any future endeavors with the Borg were already marred by the unpleasable audience.

And don't say "Then let them win" because that's never going to happen on televised TV.

2) They're just too boring as a recurring foe. It's always the same damn Big Voice saying "Resistance is Futile" and that's it, nothing else. That's just boring, having the Borg show up with their usual blather and lose. It worked in BOBW because that was the first time it happened and because of Locutus. It wouldn't work after that.

In fact, the whole "One Voice" thing was dumb for a new enemy to begin with. The Zerg Swarm are a "Hive Mind" enemy done better. They don't have the one Overmind control all Zerg, the Overmind has Zerg Cerebrates in control of different broods of the Greater Swarm and each Cerebrate is a sentient being that can think. The Cerebrates can communicate with others and EACH other as well, and each one has a personality different from the other although they all are loyal to the Overmind's will.

THAT is what the Borg needed, each Borg Cube should have been it's own Collective unto itself instead of the One Voice on each ship being the same Big Voice over and over. Each "Voice" on each ship should've been a "Many voices as one" thing but still sound different enough that you'd know that it was a different Collective. Thus, with this difference established the writers now have the creative breathing room to have each Collective be different in its methods and goals than the others so it's not as boring. Some Collectives would just be the big dumb "Full-on Assault" type, others could favor subtle approaches, spying, etc. And each one could manifest itself through any of its drones at any time if they want a one-on-one talk between the Collectives and the heroes.

Of course, they'd all still answer to the Biggest Voice at the Unicomplex, but be autonomous the rest of the time.

Also, show that each Collective would change over time as the direct result of the peoples it assimilates. The constant additions would manifest themselves in such a fashion. As the Collective changes the victims, the victims change the Collective.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

And that could in turn open the way for a Borg Civil War in a more interesting fashion than Unimatrix 0. Like the Wraith in Atlantis, they will unite to take on a powerful foe but are autonomous the rest of the time. Except the Borg would do it in reverse, obey 'orders' most of the time but sometimes rebelling and fighting (and maybe even assimilating) other mini collectives.
On another note, that could work with cyborgs or insects/parasites.

 

[Arpy]

Anwar, the Borg were not emasculated by the audience's expectations but by the writers' lack of imagination and the producers' stupidity. The audience should not be blamed for expecting to see something that TPTB came up with done to TPTB's criteria.

That the Borg were very powerful - Q was more so and he remained interesting for far more episodes.

They got lazy. I.e. An Intrepid Class starship survived a direct attack on a tactical cube. ...It's like writing a movie about killer ants, only instead of having them crawl in through the pipes, they kick in the door.

So, insect Borg or cyborg Borg... How about cybernetic insects? Ones that slice and dice you into their collective?

 

[Anwar]

That the Borg were very powerful - Q was more so and he remained interesting for far more episodes.

Q was never an out and out antagonist who tried to destroy the ship or the Federation (why would he? He's so far beyond them there's no purpose). And he had a personality that was entertaining.

They got lazy. I.e. An Intrepid Class starship survived a direct attack on a tactical cube. ...It's like writing a movie about killer ants, only instead of having them crawl in through the pipes, they kick in the door.

That's the problem when you have a show about a small, weak ship that has no support whatsoever. They HAVE to survive everything thrown at them or the show is OVER.

It's not like TNG didn't do the same thing: with a skeleton crew, Crusher was able to destroy the Borg Cruiser in "Descent" but no one cared or said it emasculated the Borg there. VOY creates a new species that can fight the Borg and are immune to anything the Borg can throw at them, and the audience reacts by saying they've emasculated the Borg by saying such a species exists to begin with.

Unpleasable.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Borg hive mind

That's the problem when you have a show about a small, weak ship that has no support whatsoever. They HAVE to survive everything thrown at them or the show is OVER.

The alternative is to have a huge massive weapons ship that rarely anyone defeats. This really lowers the storytelling drama as a Trek TV series ship would be far too powerful for any enemy.

In fact, the whole "One Voice" thing was dumb for a new enemy to begin with.

It illustrates the hive mind very well on television as a dramatic storytelling device.

sharing of minds into a single consciousness, serving and driving the goals of its entire population. As such individuality in a hive mind is sacrificed for the whole, and its members/resources are assigned tasks according to how to best achieve those goals.

as per memory alpha.
Hive mind societies encountered by the Federation include:

• The Body of Landru (TOS: "The Return of the Archons")
• An species of neural parasite that infested Deneva in 2267 (TOS: "Operation -- Annihilate!")
• The androids of planet Mudd (TOS: "I, Mudd")
• The Borg Collective (TNG: "Q Who")
• The Borg Cooperative (VOY: "Unity")

THAT is what the Borg needed, each Borg Cube should have been it's own Collective unto itself

An interesting idea but that would be a very small hive mind.

Of course, they'd all still answer to the Biggest Voice at the Unicomplex, but be autonomous the rest of the time.[/QUOTE]The very opposite of the hive mind collective idea.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Borg hive mind

The alternative would be for VOY to not be on its own or not have any support. Like maybe they decide to help form a new Federation in whatever part of the Galaxy they've been stuck in. Or make it a medium-level ship and not a small weak ship.

Having the one Voice thing worked when it was just that one Borg appearance in Q Who? and BOBW, after that it just gets boring if it's the same mind in control of all other Borg. If each Borg Cube was a Collective unto itself (or there are Borg flotillas out there composed of smaller Borg ships and only 1 of those huge Cubes as the Collective controlling them in each one) then it would handily explain why the Borg only ever send one Cube to fight the Feds: It's the choice of that one Collective and not all Borg.

Hell, having there be multiple Collectives would mean there'd be no Borg "Home". They could be spread all throughout the Galaxy with no real location.

They'd all have the same overall goal of advancement through assimilation and new technology, but each Collective would have its own way of doing things. And if the writers wanted there to be actual interaction with the Borg, each Collective could turn a drone into its mouthpiece like Locutus. Hell, this would easily open up to a Borg vs Borg conflict where we see two mouthpieces arguing with one another without ruining the Borg concept.

A Small Hive Mind? Well, they could unite into a massive Hive Mind when there was a significant enough danger they could agree on and/or the Unicomplex ordered it to happen. Each Collective's size would be whatever the writer wanted it to be, with the Unicomplex Collective being the most massive.

 

[Kai Winn]

That the Borg were very powerful - Q was more so and he remained interesting for far more episodes.

They got lazy. I.e. An Intrepid Class starship survived a direct attack on a tactical cube. ...It's like writing a movie about killer ants, only instead of having them crawl in through the pipes, they kick in the door.

q looked quite deranged when he reminded his son not to provoke the borg.

in which episode did voyager attack a cube? possible, but i don't remember. spheres and a probe yes, but cubes? unlike the enterprise, voyager had a couple of advantages, seven, one, more advanced technologies, smarter tactics. it doesn't matter how much smaller than a galaxy-class ship voyager was, the enterprise was equally outgunned, only a whole fleet could destroy a cube by shooting at it, and only with an insider knowing what exactly to target. as easy as enterprise-e destroyed the sphere later on with a photon torpedo or two, they can't be the formidable ships the cubes are. voyager beamed a photon torpedo into the brunali ship when it was sucked into the interior of a sphere, this one only disabled the sphere.

i felt the invention of the borg queen was ingenious, to give the supervillain personality, charisma, and to explain who tells the borg what to do. otherwise, we would probably be busy with this question.

the tholians were also insects, weren't they?

ramming an 8472 ship evidently destroyed it. i guess the borg were a lot more numerous than 8472, and had no problem to sacrifice a few thousand cubes.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Borgs as insectoids probably would have pleased the Burroughs fan in me, but I'm not sure I could watch them and eat at the same time.

Heh.

 

[The Wormhole]

in which episode did voyager attack a cube? possible, but i don't remember. spheres and a probe yes, but cubes?

Unimatrix Zero, the finale of the sixth season. In fact, it's not just any old cube, but rather a "Class 4 Tactical Cube." Baiscally it's a cube with added hull-plating, enhanced weapons, other pimped out defenses which spell out "Badass." And one Intrepid class starship took it on by itself.

 

[Arpy]

That the Borg were very powerful - Q was more so and he remained interesting for far more episodes.

Q was never an out and out antagonist who tried to destroy the ship or the Federation (why would he? He's so far beyond them there's no purpose). And he had a personality that was entertaining.

They got lazy. I.e. An Intrepid Class starship survived a direct attack on a tactical cube. ...It's like writing a movie about killer ants, only instead of having them crawl in through the pipes, they kick in the door.

That's the problem when you have a show about a small, weak ship that has no support whatsoever. They HAVE to survive everything thrown at them or the show is OVER.

It's not like TNG didn't do the same thing: with a skeleton crew, Crusher was able to destroy the Borg Cruiser in "Descent" but no one cared or said it emasculated the Borg there. VOY creates a new species that can fight the Borg and are immune to anything the Borg can throw at them, and the audience reacts by saying they've emasculated the Borg by saying such a species exists to begin with.

Unpleasable.

With all due respect, this is why they got away with stuff like the tactical cube again and again until only the true believers were watching and Star Trek nearly died altogether.

 

[Kai Winn]

you think so? i thought the dominion war did the job. voyager encountered the borg on average in 2 or 3 episodes per season from season 3 onwards, 10 to 15 times in 170 episodes. not much for the powerhouse of the galaxy.

Unimatrix Zero, the finale of the sixth season. In fact, it's not just any old cube, but rather a "Class 4 Tactical Cube."

this one. watched it only once, its boring.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

TNG FX & Costumes

I think the FX probably would've sucked at that time.

I agree.
Having become a Trek fan with VOY I never saw most of TNG. When I purchased the Borg Fan Collective on DVD I first saw the TNG episodes and after years of watching the Borg being a scary humanoid villain and also seeing them in First Contact I laughed at the quality of the TNG-era Borg costume & robot-like practical appliances implants. It was not scary to me at all after years of VOY production values.

 

[DarKush]

^
Though the FX were much improved for VOY and First Contact were the Borg were concerned, and the ideas about the Borg had been more fleshed out, I enjoyed the chalky white Borg of TNG and ENT's "Regeneration" more. Perhaps its nostalgia, but when they were first introduced in "Q Who" they were a mysterious, terrifying enemy, and "Best of Both Worlds, Part 1" remains my favorite hour of Trek period. For the time period, well actually even today, I think the original TNG Borg really stand out. I never quite jibed with the post-TNG Borg. They looked a little too zombified. Plus I never quite liked the concept of the Borg Queen, though Alice Krige was creepily sexy. Though I did like a lot of the various ships and Borg technology VOY introduced.

It's a pity that you won't get that initial shock of seeing them for the first time since you experienced them on VOY first. IMO, I think VOY overused them, and their best outings were probably "Scorpion" (which ironically really defanged them) and "Dark Frontier" which altered the first contact story in "Q Who" that I so loved and still do. "Unimatrix Zero" was entertaining enough, but I didn't find it all that compelling, and I scoffed at how VOY turned the assimilation process into a walk in the park. It was a violation of the worst kind for Picard and it changed him tremendously. It added to the threat of the Borg. We saw what they could do on a big scale, but also on a more intimate level. The TNG Borg were truly terrifying. In comparison to VOY Borg, I don't think Janeway or Torres were affected at all by being assimilated. I might be wrong, but I thought the assimilation process triggered a mental illness in Tuvok, in "Endgame", and if so, the events of that program wiped that real consequence away. Even with Seven, they showed you could shed all that Borg armor and dead skin and be a Barbie doll in like two seconds. After RDM had left VOY, after a brief stint, I remember reading how he had wanted to have Seven's human look be slowly restored. I think this would've helped underline her growing humanity but it would also serve to reemphasize that being unassimilated is a long, arduous, and perhaps dangerous process. But TPTB were hot to get Jeri Ryan into a catsuit.

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: TNG FX & Costumes

I think the FX probably would've sucked at that time.

I agree.
Having become a Trek fan with VOY I never saw most of TNG. When I purchased the Borg Fan Collective on DVD I first saw the TNG episodes and after years of watching the Borg being a scary humanoid villain and also seeing them in First Contact I laughed at the quality of the TNG-era Borg costume & robot-like practical appliances implants. It was not scary to me at all after years of VOY production values.

I personally prefer the TNG era Borg. They actually look mechanical. "Cheap" is never what I would describe them as. The First Contact/Voyager Borg lose points with me for all those prominent veins. While it looked cool seeing that officer grow the veins while he was begging for help in First Contact, the look otherwise doesn't work for me.

I also found the interiors of the Borg ship in TNG superior and mechanical to what we saw in First Contact and Voyager. TNG actually showed tidy sterile interior while First Contact and Voyager showed us dark smoky interiors with green and orange lights strobing and swinging around.

 

[Anwar]

That the Borg were very powerful - Q was more so and he remained interesting for far more episodes.

Q was never an out and out antagonist who tried to destroy the ship or the Federation (why would he? He's so far beyond them there's no purpose). And he had a personality that was entertaining.

They got lazy. I.e. An Intrepid Class starship survived a direct attack on a tactical cube. ...It's like writing a movie about killer ants, only instead of having them crawl in through the pipes, they kick in the door.

That's the problem when you have a show about a small, weak ship that has no support whatsoever. They HAVE to survive everything thrown at them or the show is OVER.

It's not like TNG didn't do the same thing: with a skeleton crew, Crusher was able to destroy the Borg Cruiser in "Descent" but no one cared or said it emasculated the Borg there. VOY creates a new species that can fight the Borg and are immune to anything the Borg can throw at them, and the audience reacts by saying they've emasculated the Borg by saying such a species exists to begin with.

Unpleasable.

With all due respect, this is why they got away with stuff like the tactical cube again and again until only the true believers were watching and Star Trek nearly died altogether.

The loss of viewers was with the ending of TNG, it had little to nothing to do with the quality of DS9 and VOY's stories. In fact the ones watching VOY WERE the "True Believers", which is partially why they were so unpleasable.

 

[Arpy]

Ratings Chart

I have no interest in debating this tonight. I watched the franchise implode for a decade.

Trek got stopped growing so the audience found more vital entertainments - often ones that owed a lot to Trek. Blaming them for being discerning is wrong.

And I'm disagreeing that it was only the true believers who watched VOY. You're overestimating their numbers. A lot of people FOUND Trek through VOY.

 

[TedShatner10]

Seven was more obviously a Borg than Picard was - at the end of "BoBW" he had some grafted skin and his voice box was still Borg-ish, but he became physically normal in the space of a few minutes, with his mental scars being hurt pride and recovering from being a hostage-cum-collaborator. In relation Annika was a Borg for so long her bone structure was partially metal and she had mostly robotic limbs, her mental state being more android than human.