What If: Star Trek (TMP)

[CuttingEdge100]

Okay, I got a question for you guys (I did something sort of like this before, but not exactly). If you were the Executive Producer / Director, how would you have made Star Trek TMP?

Would you have done it exactly the same, maybe added a few extra scenes in here and there, or taken a few parts out?

Or would you have done it *TOTALLY* different... different plot, etc...


CuttingEdge100

 

[Maurice]

Okay, I got a question for you guys (I did something sort of like this before, but not exactly). If you were the Executive Producer / Director, how would you have made Star Trek TMP?

Would you have done it exactly the same, maybe added a few extra scenes in here and there, or taken a few parts out?

Or would you have done it *TOTALLY* different... different plot, etc...

I'd have had Kirk join with V'ger, and BE the hero of the piece. I'd also have picked up the pace, tossed out the wormhole, and made Kirk's character arc continue til the climactic decision and not peter out midway through the second act.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I'd have had Kirk join with V'ger, and BE the hero of the piece. I'd also have picked up the pace, tossed out the wormhole, and made Kirk's character arc continue til the climactic decision and not peter out midway through the second act.

IIRC, Harlan Ellison made a similar comment about Kirk in his review of TMP that appeared in his "Harlan Ellison's Watching" column. He said that one of the major faults of the movie was that the hero Kirk doesn't do the heroic thing at the end and merge with V'Ger. Hell, he doesn't even make the climactic decision. In fact, the Holy Trinity just watch as Decker leads the action. If I had to hazzard a guess, I'd say that this movie certainly was the origin of the TNG style of storytelling in which the main characters react rather than act in the course of the adventure.

 

[Saga]

the idea is sound but it was very lacking in execution. should there have been someone or something else at the center of V'Ger for Kirk to confront/fight? i'm not sure that would have been a good decision.

 

[Stardate]

Already. I actually like TMP overall story-plot, and its my favorite Trek film along with TWOK. TMP is good but it had serious production/editing problems. I would demanded if i was Executive Producer / Director time to finish it right. I would add more character moment and more action. I would redesign uniforms so it would look more like TOS(but with darker tone f.e. maroon red, Navy blue e.c.c.).
During Klingon's attack on Vger i would have let one Klingon ship escape tossed out the wormhole scene. I would then add scene instead where Enterprise is ambushed by declocking Klingon ship that escape earlier. Klingon managed to disable Enterprise shield for a moment and when it is arming torpedo for the kill Vger energy pulse destroys the Klingon ship and save the Enterprise just in time.

I think having Decker & Illia merge is better because of their prior relationship. I would be okey if Kirk had offered himself before Decker but for Illia probe to reject him and then cut to scene where Illia look at Decker then they merged..

 

[RobertScorpio]

Already. I actually like TMP overall story-plot, and its my favorite Trek film along with TWOK. TMP is good but it had serious production/editing problems. I would demanded if i was Executive Producer / Director time to finish it right. I would add more character moment and more action. I would redesign uniforms so it would look more like TOS(but with darker tone f.e. maroon red, Navy blue e.c.c.).
During Klingon's attack on Vger i would have let one Klingon ship escape tossed out the wormhole scene. I would then add scene instead where Enterprise is ambushed by declocking Klingon ship that escape earlier. Klingon managed to disable Enterprise shield for a moment and when it is arming torpedo for the kill Vger energy pulse destroys the Klingon ship and save the Enterprise just in time.

I think having Decker & Illia merge is better because of their prior relationship. I would be okey if Kirk had offered himself before Decker but for Illia probe to reject him and then cut to scene where Illia look at Decker then they merged..

I agree with your suggestions. Having Kirk merge with Ilya doesn't make sense. As you said, it was their prior relationship that drives that scene. What they could have done to make Kirk more proactive? Having Decker merge with Ilya should have been the point of the last act of the movie, with Kirk and others in agreement. And THAT is when your Klingon ship/commander makes his unexpected return. Have Kirk and company locked in some kind of space battle, decoying enough time so that Decker can make to where he has to go, with Ilya, the heart of Voyager, so that the merge can happen.

Rob

 

[trevanian]

Already. I actually like TMP overall story-plot, and its my favorite Trek film along with TWOK. TMP is good but it had serious production/editing problems. I would demanded if i was Executive Producer / Director time to finish it right. I would add more character moment and more action. I would redesign uniforms so it would look more like TOS(but with darker tone f.e. maroon red, Navy blue e.c.c.).
During Klingon's attack on Vger i would have let one Klingon ship escape tossed out the wormhole scene. I would then add scene instead where Enterprise is ambushed by declocking Klingon ship that escape earlier. Klingon managed to disable Enterprise shield for a moment and when it is arming torpedo for the kill Vger energy pulse destroys the Klingon ship and save the Enterprise just in time.

I think having Decker & Illia merge is better because of their prior relationship. I would be okey if Kirk had offered himself before Decker but for Illia probe to reject him and then cut to scene where Illia look at Decker then they merged..

I agree with your suggestions. Having Kirk merge with Ilya doesn't make sense. As you said, it was their prior relationship that drives that scene. What they could have done to make Kirk more proactive? Having Decker merge with Ilya should have been the point of the last act of the movie, with Kirk and others in agreement. And THAT is when your Klingon ship/commander makes his unexpected return. Have Kirk and company locked in some kind of space battle, decoying enough time so that Decker can make to where he has to go, with Ilya, the heart of Voyager, so that the merge can happen.

Rob

Got some good stuff here, guys, especially if you could get the action simultaneous, but it is making the movie longer. The 2nd half of act 2 is always way too slow in all versions of TMP, so maybe the thing to do is go back to IN THY IMAGE, where they discover vger is derived from a NASA probe much earlier, so it isn't THE BIG (notsobig) revelation, but instead a major plot turn. That would cut down a lot of gawking and slow stuff in act 3.

The Kirk/Decker division of labor is an echo of Wise's ANDROMEDA STRAIN, where the titular hero played by Arthur Hill basically just is in charge and survives, while the younger action hero played by James Olson is the guy who actually has to do climbing and get shot by lasers. There's even something of this in Wise's HINDENBURG if you want to think of William Atherton's well-meaning antagonist as the action guy of the piece against George Scott's grand old disillusioned german.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Got some good stuff here, guys, especially if you could get the action simultaneous, but it is making the movie longer. The 2nd half of act 2 is always way too slow in all versions of TMP, so maybe the thing to do is go back to IN THY IMAGE, where they discover vger is derived from a NASA probe much earlier, so it isn't THE BIG (notsobig) revelation, but instead a major plot turn. That would cut down a lot of gawking and slow stuff in act 3.

The Kirk/Decker division of labor is an echo of Wise's ANDROMEDA STRAIN, where the titular hero played by Arthur Hill basically just is in charge and survives, while the younger action hero played by James Olson is the guy who actually has to do climbing and get shot by lasers. There's even something of this in Wise's HINDENBURG if you want to think of William Atherton's well-meaning antagonist as the action guy of the piece against George Scott's grand old disillusioned german.

I just saw Wise's Andormeda Strain a couple weeks back. Great movie...and yes, I see your point.

The movie, TMP, would have to have been rewritten. When the 'energy' probe comes aboard, I would have had it enter Ilya's body on the bridge right there and then, possessing her right away. Though, at times, the real Ilya is able to get 'through' the influence of the probe.

She tells them what has to happen..and they have to get to the center of the cloud. Vger is weakinging (for whatever reason). They eventually go to the transporter to beam down but Vger only allows Decker/Ilya to just as the klingon ship attacks the enterprise.

While Kirk deals with the Klingons, they also are in contact with Decker. We see Decker come upon Vger and Kirk, and spock, see that it is a voyager probe. That is when Ilya says that VGR must join with the creator. They all realize what it means, Kirk says he will come down and do it. Spock reminds Kirk they are in battle the Klingons, there is no way he can beam down with lower the shields.

Then Decker does it, joins with Vgr. And then we find out that the Klingon ship was really an illusion created by VGR to get Decker away from them...

The end.

Rob

 

[RyanKCR]

I once, with my VHS tape of the SLV, just edited out the blank stares except for when someone spoke and left all the special effects in. Then I loaned it to a friend who said that it was a different, better movie after that. That is about all I would do.

 

[Search4]

Actually none of these is what i would do. IMHO the last thing the movie needs is a space battle.

Kirk's character arc is completely missing and that's what i would focus on. He appears triumphantly (to those of us who hadn't seen him in 10 years in the theatre!), then takes over the "E" and acts like an ass.

What's missing is the potential scene with Nogura. At that point it could be made clear that:
- Kirk's been behind a desk for a long time
- Starfleet's lost a series of ships investigating the thing coming in
- Kirk is organizing the response and all other ships are being recalled for planetary defense or evacuation
- Kirk insists he should meet the "thing" in space, but needs his old crew to be successful
- Nogura gives him Enterprise, since its not active, if he can fix it up in time.

This allows the plot to form nicely: there's a reason he is on the not-yet-working E, gets his old crew "drafted", and steps on Decker.

I know, don't explain everything in a movie, but i believe this sets up Kirk far better than just showing him to be an ass.

Also: I'd give McCoy much more to do.
And i agree - he should merge with V'ger at the end. That's his proof that man created it, etc.


(oh and I'd replace the three Klingons with starfleet ships.)

 

[Supervisor 194]

I'd have Spock be the one to merge with it: Vger's story parallels Spock's, not Kirk's. I'd have Kirk be opposed to the merging, but in the end see the necessity of it--making a sacrifice. I'm not sure how, but I'd throw in some kind of 'roadblock' to the merge that Kirk has to overcome in a heroic, action-y way.

 

[I am not Spock]

I'd leave at least one of those Klingon ships at the beginning alive. Just so Kirk and co. can have a tangible enemy to fight in the movie. One of the chief complaints about TMP is its slow-moving nature, and at least one space battle could have helped in that regard.

 

[Maurice]

The problem with the Klingons is they're this insignificant thing next to V'ger. Seriously, this giant thing is heading towards Earth...who CARES about Klingons? Seriously, some of the best Trek episodes never had an adversary (say The Naked Time). What you need is character conflict and a ticking clock. The film just needed to play it's character arcs out, more strongly...and pick up the pace.

 

[trevanian]

Well, sad to say, but if character is action, then a klingon fight would help Kirk's character, since he is pretty inactive. I love IMMUNITY SYNDROME, but if it had been the feature, Kirk would have had to be out there in a spacesuit saving Spock or vice versa (oh wait that is first cut TMP, ain't it?) nevermind.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well, sad to say, but if character is action, then a klingon fight would help Kirk's character, since he is pretty inactive. I love IMMUNITY SYNDROME, but if it had been the feature, Kirk would have had to be out there in a spacesuit saving Spock or vice versa (oh wait that is first cut TMP, ain't it?) nevermind.

Although I like TMP, it feels as if it was written for something totally different and they just added Kirk/company as framing devices around the original story. It was a re-written script one of GR's failed shows..and it feels like it.

Rob

 

[Gagarin]

I'd have had Kirk join with V'ger, and BE the hero of the piece. I'd also have picked up the pace, tossed out the wormhole, and made Kirk's character arc continue til the climactic decision and not peter out midway through the second act.

IIRC, Harlan Ellison made a similar comment about Kirk in his review of TMP that appeared in his "Harlan Ellison's Watching" column. He said that one of the major faults of the movie was that the hero Kirk doesn't do the heroic thing at the end and merge with V'Ger. Hell, he doesn't even make the climactic decision. In fact, the Holy Trinity just watch as Decker leads the action. If I had to hazzard a guess, I'd say that this movie certainly was the origin of the TNG style of storytelling in which the main characters react rather than act in the course of the adventure.

Everyone has said some great things.
But that is SO interesting about the TNG-style.

I always watched TMP and thought "wow, this doesn't feel like TOS, this doesn't feel like the later movies (obviously), this feels like TNG."

WHY would you bring in a guest star when the whole thing was "yay! Star Trek is back!" - especially when the guest star (Decker) isn't a villan. His presence doesn't cause or build tension - it gives Kirk a reason to act like an ass.

And yeah, yeah, he's tied to the Illia story. But you don't need Illia and Decker to make a story about a big giant probe returning to Earth. And whatever they add to the story isn't that great.

The movie feels like a TV episode.
Wait... cause we've seen it before (The Changling). That's actually what drives me crazy. Why do another story like that?

And even if a big cloud entity is pretty amazing - there's nothing they can do to make it look that impressive on the big screen, even in the re-do on the DVD. It just doesn't warrent all the blank stares. I hate sitting in a movie theatre watching people watch something.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Honestly, I don't like the TMP plot much.

First of all, in Star Trek, they can track ships approaching at warp-speed, yet they can't track something the size of a solar system producing the energy output of thousands of ships bearing right down on Earth? They should have seen this months in advance...

Second, if the ship had knowledge that spanned the universe, wouldn't it know virtually everything? Including the qualities of sentient species as it patterned entire planets before in the past... and their ability to leap beyond logic?


BTW: What were the other ideas that Roddenberry had cooked up for Star Trek Movies? I know there was "The God Thing", and a title that had the words "Titans" in it...


CuttingEdge100

 

[trevanian]

TREK THE LOST YEARS by Gross is a good unauthorized book on the failed trek revivals.

There has not been a definitive volume on this era yet, though Pocket did produce a well-intended, but error-riddled book on PHASE II. There's a thread on TITANS here right now, and you can probably find a few old ones on it as well.

 

[Gagarin]

TREK THE LOST YEARS by Gross is a good unauthorized book on the failed trek revivals.

There has not been a definitive volume on this era yet, though Pocket did produce a well-intended, but error-riddled book on PHASE II. There's a thread on TITANS here right now, and you can probably find a few old ones on it as well.

OH I didn't know Phase II was error filled. I don't have the book with me anymore but I wonder how much was un-information now =/.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

There's a thread on TITANS here right now, and you can probably find a few old ones on it as well.

I don't see any thread in this forum...


CuttingEdge