In TWOK Khan explains that he and seventy other Augments were left on Ceti Alpha V, and says that the Ceti eels killed fifty of them (or more accurately 49, as Marla was among them and wasn't part of the original crew) - so what became of the other twenty or so? Khan appears to be the oldest colonist when Chekov and Terrell find him, and I reckon Joachim and the others were the children of the original batch, so where are their parents?
What happened to the rest of the original Botany Bay crew?
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
See Greg Cox's novel To Reign in Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh for one answer to that and other questions.
So, what is Greg Cox's explanation?
Based on the movie alone, we are free to pick all sorts of rationalizations. It was never said Khan took all his crew with him on the ship; perhaps only the Next Generation went, while the adults had better things to do planetside. OTOH, a starship doesn't fly herself; perhaps the adults were on the lower decks, doing things that actually required skill and experience and not just blind obedience and quick learning.
However, the likeliest explanation might be that Khan eliminated his competitors back on the planet where resources were scarce.
Timo Saloniemi
Based on the movie alone, we are free to pick all sorts of rationalizations. It was never said Khan took all his crew with him on the ship; perhaps only the Next Generation went, while the adults had better things to do planetside. OTOH, a starship doesn't fly herself; perhaps the adults were on the lower decks, doing things that actually required skill and experience and not just blind obedience and quick learning.
However, the likeliest explanation might be that Khan eliminated his competitors back on the planet where resources were scarce.
Timo Saloniemi
If I recall correctly
The older ones die over the course of the 15 years through various means natural and un-natural. Their kids all turn in to Aryan Supermen because of something funky with augment process.
One could also think
By that logic, Khan may also have, uh, assisted the departure of the remaining competing males. Why worry about diversity and viability when everybody's likely to die within a generation anyway?
Timo Saloniemi
they all turn "Aryan" because the ethnically distinct women all died, and Khan (who's reasonably Caucasian-looking for a Sikh) was the father. Why give procreation rights to inferior beings?
By that logic, Khan may also have, uh, assisted the departure of the remaining competing males. Why worry about diversity and viability when everybody's likely to die within a generation anyway?
Timo Saloniemi
You all need to watch the film again. Khan distinctly says "It killed twenty of my people. Including my beloved wife."(underline mine)
That's a few less than fifty.
That's a few less than fifty.
The novel To Reign in Hell not only deals with this particular issue, but also provides explanations for other errors in TWOK. Literally everything from the obvious and easy to explain (Khan knowing Chekov), the harder to explain (Khan wearing a Starfleet belt buckle from the current uniforms), to ones I never even thought of until I read the book (like how would the Reliant crew go to Ceti Alpha V thinking it was Ceti Alpha VI).
Defintely an entertaining book.
Defintely an entertaining book.
The other members of the Botany Bay were killed by conditions on the planet. That was pretty tough for Khan to handle but what really drove him over the edge was the dying of his wife. That is what made Khan so crazy (not that he was a pillar of stability before he met her!) but its what made him hell bent for revenge.
At least that is the way that Ricardo Montalban said he played the character.
At least that is the way that Ricardo Montalban said he played the character.
Augments actually comes from Enterprise, and they said in that particular story arc that Khan and his followers were called "Augments."
What a bizarre question. Khan clearly says "what you see is all that remains of her crew..." Clearly these are meant to be the same people Khan had with him 20 years earlier. There's a reason his right hand man had the same name (and I don't want to hear about spelling, it's never spelled in the episode or the movie).
Aren' they pronouced differently: Joachim vs Joaquin. One being Spanish and the other Hebrew.
Wow. Thanks to you and Christopher for the free plug and rave review.
And, yeah, Khan only says how many of his people were killed BY THE EELS. It seemed reasonable to assume that others were killed other ways, especially after the cataclysm. Earthquakes, disease, violence, etc.
As to the generational issue . . . let's be honest, there's a bit of confusion here. The dialogue in WoK certainly implies that Khan's henchmen are the same ones from "Space Seed," but the casting director clearly didn't get that memo! Joaquin and the others are obviously much younger (and blonder) than the original crew of the Botany Bay. So that's how I wrote them.
Incidentally, I spoke with Judson Scott about this once, and, as far as he's concerned, Joaquin was supposed to be Khan's son. (That's not the official party line, though, so I split the difference by making him Khan's adopted son.)
I believe each is only said once in its respective show, and I don't notice an audible difference. I believe it safe and reasonable to believe the TWOK writers were using, or intended to use, the same name as that in the episode.
No doubt, but it would appear they heard it differently and screwed up.
My own guess is that that Joachim was originally meant to be Joaquin, but they changed their mind at some point, maybe after Judson Scott was cast. (Kind of like Tom Paris was originally going to be Nick Locarno or Valeris started out as Saavik.) Scripts go through changes, and they may have changed the name to give themselves a little more wiggle room. (The guy is "Space Seed" acts nothing like the character in Wrath of Khan.)
When we talk about what the writers may have intended, it's worth remembering that intentions often change from one draft to another. I've seen characters change radically during script rewrites. And what one writer intends may be different from what the next writer thinks . . . or what the director or the actor intends. Nothing is definite until the final cut.
Again, Judson Scott didn't think he was playing the big brute from "Space Seed." He played his scenes as though he was Khan's son.
When we talk about what the writers may have intended, it's worth remembering that intentions often change from one draft to another. I've seen characters change radically during script rewrites. And what one writer intends may be different from what the next writer thinks . . . or what the director or the actor intends. Nothing is definite until the final cut.
Again, Judson Scott didn't think he was playing the big brute from "Space Seed." He played his scenes as though he was Khan's son.
Last edited:
Similar threads
