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What happened to the Christian church?

Danoz

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First off, I ask that responses not be cynical. I don't want to derail this thread. I'm looking for a a quality discussion on this regardless of your faith/beliefs.

I'm usually quiet about my faith because I don't have an overwhelming desire to either flaunt or defend it (both to and from Christians who would find my interpretation of scripture rather liberal). For years I've been out of the church. Recently, I decided to give my cousin's church a try-- and while some of the messages are well crafted (mostly about how to live an optimistic, fulfilling life) I find the atmosphere to be completely different from the nondenominational churches of my childhood.

The church I visited (and visit when I'm home periodically) is a megaplex. Complete with a bookstore, coffeeshop, massive auditorium, basketball court, daycare, classrooms and Walmart-sized parking lot. A majority of the service is led by an extremely modern praise team (electric guitar, drum set, bass etc). Lyrics to praise songs are positioned on two massive projection screens on either side of the auditorium. There’s nothing particularly substantive about them (no more than “Jesus loves me”). There is always a new "set" themed to the monthly topic. The audiovisuals and IT team strike me as impressively modern aged, tapped into dozens of new media outlets and even utilizing videoconferencing for the pastor to engage other speakers live during the sermon. There are no traditional hymnals. People are dressed daily casual, with the young people dressed they way I attended most of my college classes (hoodies, sweatpants etc). Sermons are rather light. They talk about purpose, examine one or two Bible verses and then conclude. At first, it was a bit of a culture shock. Offering is an event, where they encourage a percentage of people's incomes to the church (not surprising, given the infrastructure!).

What I was impressed with is the mission work. As I work in Global Health, I was particularly impressed by all the development assistance coming from this megaplex in the forms of human resources, microfinance and medical support to all reaches of the world (clearly there’s a disconnect between the “country first” mantra of the Republican Party and the actual work of faith-based organizations). A number of couples had actually physically adopted or sponsored children abroad. Dozens more had contributed to funds to provide AIDS relief. The church was well informed about current crises in Zimbabwe and offered prayers and support (again, I was impressed at the knowledge of current events being passed along).

I apologize for this thread being mostly stream of consciousness, but this church, this megaplex, appeared to me to be more of an incredibly active community center for social interaction. I asked about the lightness of the sermons, and was told that deeper levels of Christian apologetics were reserved for smaller focus groups that took place various evenings. These actually are fairly substantive—dealing with interpretation and discussion, more than just a passing “study” of scripture. I was curious about the political breakdown of the congregation given the church’s worldly attitude.

I know that all churches haven’t changed this dramatically, but what’s your take on some of this? A piece of me is largely “grossed out” by the praise teams, the showiness, the “Jesus-is-your-friend” claim and the painful attempts to market Christianity as the next cool thing (like new coke). Another part of me admires the work being done and the ability of the monstrosity to mobilize thousands of people and do good things. Another part misses the formality and tradition of a service with traditional music that doesn’t sound like a indie rock band’s take on simple praise songs.

What’s your take?
 
I personally don't agree with having stores in churches. Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple because it's a place to worship and not to do business. Similarly I also disagree with a certain percentage of your earnings going towards the church. That should be a completely voluntary offering from your heart.

Overall, this megaplex church seems to be trying too hard to be cool and I disagree with their methods, but in this age of declining church attendance in many religions, who can blame them?
 
The church I visited (and visit when I'm home periodically) is a megaplex. Complete with a bookstore, coffeeshop, massive auditorium, basketball court, daycare, classrooms and Walmart-sized parking lot. A majority of the service is led by an extremely modern praise team (electric guitar, drum set, bass etc). Lyrics to praise songs are positioned on two massive projection screens on either side of the auditorium. There’s nothing particularly substantive about them (no more than “Jesus loves me”). There is always a new "set" themed to the monthly topic. The audiovisuals and IT team strike me as impressively modern aged, tapped into dozens of new media outlets and even utilizing videoconferencing for the pastor to engage other speakers live during the sermon. There are no traditional hymnals. People are dressed daily casual, with the young people dressed they way I attended most of my college classes (hoodies, sweatpants etc). Sermons are rather light. They talk about purpose, examine one or two Bible verses and then conclude. At first, it was a bit of a culture shock. Offering is an event, where they encourage a percentage of people's incomes to the church (not surprising, given the infrastructure!).

What’s your take?

That's not a church of Christ that's a church of the Profits... play on words intended. Seriously. It's not about the message/the faith anymore it sounds like someone is running a frigging Jesus-teamed bar-and-grill.

That's my opinion, as an official Bible Thumping/Book Of Mormon Wielding member of the Latter Day Saints (open-minded very liberal non-hive-mind- joining socially permissive branch).

Also, the LDS asks for a 10% tithe. I pay as I can when I can because I want to, not because I have to. They have helped me with problems in my life, serious concrete tangible help like food and employment services so darn right I am going to pay back as best I can.

I'd prefer to take this discussion somewhere else because it will shortly degenerate into a LOLWTFRELIGION thread. :(
 
First off, I ask that responses not be cynical. I don't want to derail this thread. I'm looking for a a quality discussion on this regardless of your faith/beliefs.

I'm usually quiet about my faith because I don't have an overwhelming desire to either flaunt or defend it (both to and from Christians who would find my interpretation of scripture rather liberal). For years I've been out of the church. Recently, I decided to give my cousin's church a try-- and while some of the messages are well crafted (mostly about how to live an optimistic, fulfilling life) I find the atmosphere to be completely different from the nondenominational churches of my childhood.

The church I visited (and visit when I'm home periodically) is a megaplex. Complete with a bookstore, coffeeshop, massive auditorium, basketball court, daycare, classrooms and Walmart-sized parking lot. A majority of the service is led by an extremely modern praise team (electric guitar, drum set, bass etc). Lyrics to praise songs are positioned on two massive projection screens on either side of the auditorium. There’s nothing particularly substantive about them (no more than “Jesus loves me”). There is always a new "set" themed to the monthly topic. The audiovisuals and IT team strike me as impressively modern aged, tapped into dozens of new media outlets and even utilizing videoconferencing for the pastor to engage other speakers live during the sermon. There are no traditional hymnals. People are dressed daily casual, with the young people dressed they way I attended most of my college classes (hoodies, sweatpants etc). Sermons are rather light. They talk about purpose, examine one or two Bible verses and then conclude. At first, it was a bit of a culture shock. Offering is an event, where they encourage a percentage of people's incomes to the church (not surprising, given the infrastructure!).

What I was impressed with is the mission work. As I work in Global Health, I was particularly impressed by all the development assistance coming from this megaplex in the forms of human resources, microfinance and medical support to all reaches of the world (clearly there’s a disconnect between the “country first” mantra of the Republican Party and the actual work of faith-based organizations). A number of couples had actually physically adopted or sponsored children abroad. Dozens more had contributed to funds to provide AIDS relief. The church was well informed about current crises in Zimbabwe and offered prayers and support (again, I was impressed at the knowledge of current events being passed along).

I apologize for this thread being mostly stream of consciousness, but this church, this megaplex, appeared to me to be more of an incredibly active community center for social interaction. I asked about the lightness of the sermons, and was told that deeper levels of Christian apologetics were reserved for smaller focus groups that took place various evenings. These actually are fairly substantive—dealing with interpretation and discussion, more than just a passing “study” of scripture. I was curious about the political breakdown of the congregation given the church’s worldly attitude.

I know that all churches haven’t changed this dramatically, but what’s your take on some of this? A piece of me is largely “grossed out” by the praise teams, the showiness, the “Jesus-is-your-friend” claim and the painful attempts to market Christianity as the next cool thing (like new coke). Another part of me admires the work being done and the ability of the monstrosity to mobilize thousands of people and do good things. Another part misses the formality and tradition of a service with traditional music that doesn’t sound like a indie rock band’s take on simple praise songs.

What’s your take?

Give me a room, a couple of folding chairs, and at least one person willing to listen, and I'll give you a church. Anything more is fluff.

I hold nothing against anyone who likes the church you mentioned, but I don't. I consider them cold, sterile environments. "Worship Centers" if you will. No, no, I want a church, where the Pastor doesn't stand behind a pulpit, where there aren't legions of support personnel. I consider it overkill. Kind of a "Why do we have these $10,000 big screen plasma televisions? We don't need them. On the other hand there is a homeless family living in a shelter down the street from this place."

To me, it just shows the corporate identity most of these churches have.
Your pastor's more of a CEO than a shepherd, the congregation more like employees than people of similar spirit coming to worship and fellowship.

I don't know, I guess I sound old fashioned that way.

J.
 
my church meets in the aerobics room at a local family sports center/ice rink place thing
we're small but growing, maybe 50 people. every week we set up the PA system, chairs etc. I run the sound system, my brother and housemates play in the worship band. our pastor uses scripture and applies it to modern life, for example, last week's message was 'Forgiveness is Difficult' and how God created the universe in 6 days with ease, but Jesus struggled with forgiving our sins. He desperately prayed to the Father to take the cup from him, to fine another way to cleanse humanity's sins rather than taking them all onto himself, but he knew that he had to do it. 'not my will, but yours be done'

anyway . . . got sidetracked there

I used to go to a 'megachurch' . . . the sermons were empty and it felt as if everyone was there simply out of custom, or habit
it's been almost two years since I've been there, so I don't know if things have changed, but it really became stale there

also on Friday nights (hooray for the DVR, don't want to miss BSG :lol:) I go to another church where a great group of young adults meet to worship and spend time studying the Bible

I could care less about the facilities, after all what is a church without people? Just a building.


and to answer the OP question:
what's happened to the Christian church is that in some cases people focus on numbers, and bringing more people to church (more people = larger amounts of money in the offering basket) and with that comes larger buildings and more expensive lighting, audio/video systems, commercialization, coffee shops, bookstores etc . . .
an absolutely prime example is Saddleback . . . Rick Warren wrote a book that sold millions. heck my old church did the 40 Days of Purpose thing . . . total fluff! It's a feelgood message to bring people in, but doesn't mean a whole lot. Oh great I have a purpose, I'm special. Now what?
they're like a living example of Revelation 3:14-22
 
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My church is very large, but is not a 'megachurch' in that we are still of a specific denomination (most megachurches aren't). We are still Lutheran. And our sermons are not bland or lifeless; the pastor always has something concrete to say.
 
The catholics came along and said "believe in the church" instead of "believe in Jesus" ...it was all downhill from there.
 
My church has a little of what you are talking about but also is very active in the local community. Starting last Sunday we started to take in some of the homeless overnight in the building.
 
this church, this megaplex, appeared to me to be more of an incredibly active community center for social interaction. I asked about the lightness of the sermons, and was told that deeper levels of Christian apologetics were reserved for smaller focus groups that took place various evenings. These actually are fairly substantive—dealing with interpretation and discussion, more than just a passing “study” of scripture. I was curious about the political breakdown of the congregation given the church’s worldly attitude.

I know that all churches haven’t changed this dramatically, but what’s your take on some of this? A piece of me is largely “grossed out” by the praise teams, the showiness, the “Jesus-is-your-friend” claim and the painful attempts to market Christianity as the next cool thing (like new coke). Another part of me admires the work being done and the ability of the monstrosity to mobilize thousands of people and do good things. Another part misses the formality and tradition of a service with traditional music that doesn’t sound like a indie rock band’s take on simple praise songs.

What’s your take?

We've just moved from a contemporary urban church to an historic, traditional urban church, and it's quite a bit of an adjustment for us. Church A sang praise and worship songs, projected on a screen; Church B sings out of Hymn of the African American Church hymnal. While I didn't like the P&W songs at first (the pastor called them 7/11s: 7 words repeated 11 times), after a while they became more discerning about choosing contemporary songs with deep meaning. Now, I kind of miss that, because Church B sounds like the soundtrack to a Ken Burns Civil War documentary. I'm hoping there will eventually be a nice mixture of the two genres.

Musically, people move on. Once upon a time, everyone took piano; now people also play bass, and drums, and so on. Many churches have decided to embrace this reality, and it can be a joyful, uplifting worship experience. As with everything else, though, it can easily overwhelm the message, too.

Personally, I'm not comfortable in any church that doesn't examine and explore actual Scripture. I've been to "Christian" churches where they cite poetry and philosophy, and I leave shaking my head in amazement that I didn't once hear the name, "Jesus." Perhaps the soft-soap mega-churches try to get people in the door with the “Jesus-is-your-friend” claim and the painful attempts to market Christianity as the next cool thing (like new coke), as you describe it (hee!), but I think that just leads to a bunch of superficial Christian-ish people who treat the church as a social club. Yes, they do good works, but that's not the primary function of the body. I tend to gravitate toward churches that preach both the gospel and teach discipleship. My husband trained in Church A and now is on staff in Church B, and what they have in common is a studious approach to the Bible: what does the Scripture say, and what does it mean for your life?

As to the percentage of income: tithing has been a requirement long before Christianity ever came along. It is discussed by the prophet Malachi. Giving 10% of my income to God doesn't strike me as particularly onerous, and I have depended on the principle of tithing my entire adult life. It works. God doesn't need my money; it's an act of obedience. People act as if churches should do everything for free; that will work starting the day that the electric company, the phone company, the gas company, etc., institute a billing exemption for houses of worship.

So, I know I'm on the more conservative end of the spectrum, and I'm hoping that the thread doesn't devolve too quickly. I'd like to hear other people's points of view.

I'll also just add that, at least in the black churches, community service is a given (labeled "missions"). It isn't flashy - it's just there.
 
I find more often than not, the kind of church of which the OP speaks is really more of a business. They are in the business of selling religion to people on different levels. 1) the come when you want and buy some popcorn kind and 2) the more devout, more willing to spend lots of time and money kind.
 
The catholics came along and said "believe in the church" instead of "believe in Jesus" ...it was all downhill from there.
Bull. I don't know who you're listening to, but it's not any of the priests at the churches I've been to.
<- practicing Catholic
 
The catholics came along and said "believe in the church" instead of "believe in Jesus" ...it was all downhill from there.
THANK YOU!!! That is were it ALL went down hill. It is where it became more about MONEY then CHRIST and his Father's message.:(
 
The fuunny thing is all the televangelist who are accused of the 'YOU WILL BURN' message to none believers also have the mega-church as large as the feel good pastors.

Both the mega church which sold its product and the small local church where the denomination, not the local congregation chooses its shepard are needed. They fill seperate market niches.
 
Far be it from me to interrupt a little Catholic bashing, but did you guys ever consider that it's up to the individual and not the Church? You say "The Catholics came along", well guess what, they didn't "come along". They were a part of the original church. Now, Protestants "came along" and didn't like what Catholicism taught, so they took their own route. Looks to me that considering the way many Protestant churches are today, they've no ground to say anything about the opulence and dictation of the Catholic Church. Praise Jesus and pass up your wallet. You want to be healed? Send me your most generous "gift", and I will pray for you.

Those aren't catholics, folks. So let's look at that little ol' speck in their eye after you remove the log cabin from your own. Sound reasonable? Yeah.

Therefore, instead of being ignorant, shortsighted and blaming things on the Catholic church, how about we address the topic at hand?


J.
 
My church has a contemporary service and it is dreadful. It's poorly done. I don't like megachurches where there are no hymnals and you can barely see the pastor. I went to a couple of services at one and got nothing out of it. I don't have a problem with mixing contemporary and traditional worship, but some services seem to be more like a nightclub or coffeehouse than church.
 
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