What happened to Star Trek III: TSFS?

[F. King Daniel]

And I almost forgot: So Dr. Carol Marcus, concerned about microscopic lifeforms in ST II, was essentially a fraud and the whole Genesis stuff was a hoax because they used unstable matter? Here the subsequent movie obviously created a twist at the expense of previously introduced characters and what the screenplay writers had tried to establish in ST II.

I got the impression David used the protomatter cheat without the knowledge of Carol or the others.

 

[jpv2000]

And I almost forgot: So Dr. Carol Marcus, concerned about microscopic lifeforms in ST II, was essentially a fraud and the whole Genesis stuff was a hoax because they used unstable matter? Here the subsequent movie obviously created a twist at the expense of previously introduced characters and what the screenplay writers had tried to establish in ST II.

I got the impression David used the protomatter cheat without the knowledge of Carol or the others.

Same here. I can't remember if I got that impression from the movie itself or the novel of the movie which I read.

 

[Workbee]

Captain Nebula is asking the wrong question here. It isn't what happened to TSFS... the question is what happened IN TSFS. When I watch it now, I feel like there is this epic and intense story going on during the movie that we never see outside of some cryptic comments by certain characters.

 

[Robert Comsol]

DAVID: I used protomatter in the Genesis matrix.
SAAVIK: Protomatter. An unstable substance which every ethical scientist in the galaxy has denounced as dangerously unpredictable.
DAVID: But it was the only way to solve certain problems.

Yes, ST III makes David take the blame and responsibility. Still, according to ST II, his mother was in charge of the Genesis Project, and I have a hard time imagining her not to know what materials had come into use for the Genesis Matrix.

That was her responsibility and ST III made her look incompetent in a debatable retcon manner.

I sympathize with the efforts for rationalization of this mess, but this was really bad script writing, apparently as an excuse to have Spock age during the movie's running time and to have protagonist and antagonist fight it out on a planet that's falling apart.

Bob

 

[Mario de Monti]

@ Robert

I agree with every point you made about the movie in your post #19 (didn´t want to quote it all ). Whenever I watch the movie, I make it through the first half, knowing that the "great escape" and more shots of Grissom and Excelsior are still to come. I usually switch off as soon as the Enterprise sets course for Genesis ... everything after that I find just barely watchable.
Especially the refusing-Spock-with-his-Katra bit makes no sense at all: first, they tell Sarek that it hasn´t been done in ages and then really only in legend (which means: never). Then, after Sarek tells them he´s not quite sure of his logic anymore (!) they´re like, "well ok, if it´s your son then we go right ahead and do it". As if Sarek was the first Vulcan ever to lose someone close Also, if this procedure has never actually been done before and was thus not really an option, why was Sarek so upset with Kirk for not bringing Spock´s body to Vulcan? Or why would Spock store his Katra in McCoy in the first place? What makes Spock and/or Sarek soooooo special that they get the once-in-ages-super-special-VIP-treatment???
BTW, how would the Vulcans even know how to perform this refusion, if no one in living memory ever attempted to do it?

Mario

 

[Kinokima]

^ Spock put his soul in McCoy so it would be brought to Vulcan. I don't think he had any thoughts at the time of coming back to life.

This is also what Sarek originally came to Kirk about not about bringing Spock back to life.

However Spock was a special case due to genesis he did have a chance to come back to life. That was the ritual that had not been done for a long time (dead Vulcan bodies don't fall on Genesis every day)

Of course that is t to say there wasn't a lot of mumbo jumbo in the episode. How Spock came back is more fantasy then good science fiction but oh we'll the scenes with McCoy as Spock are great so who cares.

 

[Mario de Monti]

^ Spock put his soul in McCoy so it would be brought to Vulcan. I don't think he had any thoughts at the time of coming back to life.

This is also what Sarek originally came to Kirk about not about bringing Spock back to life.

Ok, point taken. But that would suggest, there´s some sort of "soul graveyard" on Vulcan, where all the souls of the deceased are ... living happily ever after? Still sounds like mumbo jumbo

 

[C.E. Evans]

Wow. I saw an entirely different movie. Loved it then, love it now. Watching when it first came out gives one a totally different experience than someone watching it years later after so much Star Trek has been produced. TSFS gave Trek tons of stuff that would carry through for decades.

I couldn't agree more. I loved everything about Star Trek III.

 

[Stoo]

I come away from STFS a bit confused about Katra-storage, ie is it a routine procedure for Vulcans (even if it's not normally put back in a cloned body!) and if so, why isn't Starfleet more aware.

Robert Comsol reminds me that Kruge's actions don't make a whole lot of sense. Still one of my favourite Klingons though, ruthless and a bit psychotic.

The bit about Protomatter was kind of un-ncessary. We could have believed Genesis was unstable - especially in a first uncontrolled planetary scale test without some secret forbidden ingredient. Maybe the writers wanted to give David a rash\risk taking side like his father?

Overall though I still find the film quite watchable. And maybe since I'm more aware of WoK's flaws these days (great film still, but, not great pacing) I find they fit together pretty well.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I come away from STFS a bit confused about Katra-storage, ie is it a routine procedure for Vulcans (even if it's not normally put back in a cloned body!) and if so, why isn't Starfleet more aware.

Katra-storage was not a routine procedure and katra-transference to someone else even less so. Until the 22nd-Century, many Vulcans even believed it was just a myth left over from ancient times.

And although Vulcans are one of the founding members of the Federation, not everything about them is known to non-Vulcans.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

The bit about Protomatter was kind of un-ncessary. We could have believed Genesis was unstable - especially in a first uncontrolled planetary scale test without some secret forbidden ingredient. Maybe the writers wanted to give David a rash\risk taking side like his father?

And I almost forgot: So Dr. Carol Marcus, concerned about microscopic lifeforms in ST II, was essentially a fraud and the whole Genesis stuff was a hoax because they used unstable matter? Here the subsequent movie obviously created a twist at the expense of previously introduced characters and what the screenplay writers had tried to establish in ST II.

I got the impression David used the protomatter cheat without the knowledge of Carol or the others.

Same here. I can't remember if I got that impression from the movie itself or the novel of the movie which I read.

"Protomatter" wasn't in the novel. David's secret was much vaguer, as I recall. He said something along the lines of "I knew I should have rechecked a couple of those equations because something didn't seem quite right." It was only professional negligence in the novel, not a deliberate use of something forbidden and unethical. But I'm pretty sure David hadn't told anyone else about his misgivings.

 

[Stoo]

Katra-storage was not a routine procedure and katra-transference to someone else even less so. Until the 22nd-Century, many Vulcans even believed it was just a myth left over from ancient times..

Hmm ok. Sarek seemed to assume right away that Kirk would be carrying Spock's Katra and taking it to vulcan. Maybe that family are just big fans of old mysticism?

 

[Kinokima]

No I assumed Katra Storage was common but Katra Transfer was not.

And I don't see why Starfleet would have to know. They didn't know about Pon Farr either and that was pretty common to Vulcan.

 

[Stoo]

heh, Pon Farr first appeared in TOS, right? I've not watched much so will take your word for it.

I find it weird that, if these things were common, starfleet would be so oblivious. I can see on the one hand vulcans being reluctant to discuss them with outsiders. But on the other, hard to see activities of a civillisation of millions staying secret!

 

[Kinokima]

^I kind of got the impression that a lot of Vulcan culture is not common knowledge to Star Fleet.

And yes Pon Farr was first introduced in TOS in the episode Amok Time from season 2. It's a really good episode so I recommend it. Certainly better & more interesting than the Pon Farr we see in this movie.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

heh, Pon Farr first appeared in TOS, right? I've not watched much so will take your word for it.

I find it weird that, if these things were common, starfleet would be so oblivious. I can see on the one hand vulcans being reluctant to discuss them with outsiders. But on the other, hard to see activities of a civillisation of millions staying secret!

Warp drive but no Wikipedia!

 

[C.E. Evans]

Katra-storage was not a routine procedure and katra-transference to someone else even less so. Until the 22nd-Century, many Vulcans even believed it was just a myth left over from ancient times..

Hmm ok. Sarek seemed to assume right away that Kirk would be carrying Spock's Katra and taking it to vulcan. Maybe that family are just big fans of old mysticism?

It was an ancient custom that hadn't been openly practiced for millennia until Surak's katra was discovered in the 22nd-Century. By the 23rd-Century, it was more well-known on Vulcan.

Even though every Vulcan has the potential to create a katra, I think only a special few (like Surak's) are actually stored on Vulcan and even far fewer are ever rejoined permanently with a living body like Spock's was (Vulcan priests and scholars--and even some cranky Humans--can apparently hold katras for a time until they're transferred safely into a katric ark).

 

[jpv2000]

^I kind of got the impression that a lot of Vulcan culture is not common knowledge to Star Fleet.

Same here. Those Vulcans are a very tight lipped bunch.

And yes Pon Farr was first introduced in TOS in the episode Amok Time from season 2. It's a really good episode so I recommend it. Certainly better & more interesting than the Pon Farr we see in this movie.

Agreed about Amok Time being better, but I was glad to see it in the movie however. I was waiting for it to happen as soon as we saw Spock aging so quickly.