What ever happened to the Stargazer?

[Dukhat]

I know this is an old thread, but I read this and felt compelled to point out some things:

DS9 dialog says that the Constellation NCC-1974 is still in service(never says its the "first in class", but no reason to believe it's not!)...

The dialog only refers to the ship's name, not it's registry number. And thanks to TNG-HD, there's evidence that a newer ship named the Constellation was in service in 2364, which is presumably the same ship mentioned in DS9.

...and the Hathaway NCC-2593 participated in the Tachyon detection grid during the Klingon civil war(actually seen in the episode, and on the tachyon detection grid graphic).

While a Constellation class ship was indeed physically seen in the fleet shot, it was NOT listed on the tachyon detection grid graphic, as the Hathaway or anything else. All the other ships' classes on that list were accounted for, and IIRC none of them were Constellation class. So either there were more ships in the fleet than the graphic accounted for, or it's just a mistake. It's also not confirmed that that ship was the Hathaway. While the model did display the Hathway's registry number, it wasn't seen clearly and could have represented another ship (just like the stock footage of the Stargazer represented the Victory).

 

[Squiggy]

You're confusing position with rank. Data was never promoted in Gambit. You might be confusing that with Chain of Command (S6) when Data was promoted to Executive Officer when Riker was sitting in time out. Data still carried the rank of Lt. Commander though.

I may be forgetting which episode Data was promoted in, but aside from that I'm not confusing anything; my whole point is that position and rank have been treated somewhat interchangeably in Trek, and that Roddenberry is on record as wanting it that way.

Yes, and lots of what he wanted changed after he died.

 

[Christopher]

^But what I'm saying is that what is there onscreen is ambiguous enough that we have some wiggle room to consider that maybe Starfleet treats rank more flexibly than modern militaries. Work with me here, okay?

 

[R. Star]

^But what I'm saying is that what is there onscreen is ambiguous enough that we have some wiggle room to consider that maybe Starfleet treats rank more flexibly than modern militaries. Work with me here, okay?

Really in TMP, Kirk demoting Decker to Commander just came across as our hero being childish, insecure and even threatened by Decker.

That "precident" of "wiggle room" in the ranks certainly never continued into TNG and beyond. It didn't even continue beyond STV, being Kirk, Spock and Scotty all held the rank of captain with everyone else being Commanders.

 

[Christopher]

^I don't see how that's inconsistent with the overall flexibility I'm talking about. My point is simply that rank in Star Trek is treated inconsistently -- frankly it's a mess -- and maybe it would help make it seem a bit less sloppy if we surmise that Starfleet is intentionally flexible about rank changes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Spock's rank was given as lieutenant commander in "Court Martial", although in TOS (with the exception of The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before) he always wore commander's stripes. From http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/15.htm:

COMPUTER: Spock, serial number S179-276SP. Service rank, Lieutenant Commander. Position, First officer, science officer. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Commendations, Vulcanian Scientific Legion of Honour. Awards of valour. Twice decorated by Starfleet command.

For what it's worth, from http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Spock#Ambiguities:

Spock was mistakenly referred to as a lieutenant commander in the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" despite having apparently been promoted to a full commander following "Court Martial". He was also referred to as a lieutenant commander in "The Menagerie, Part I". He is first referred to as a commander in "Amok Time". Oddly enough, even when he was a lieutenant commander prior to "Court Martial," he still wore a full commander's stripes. However, this may have been to signify his position as the ship's first officer. It is possible that he was a brevet commander at the time, with an official rank of lieutenant commander.

I'm not sure what the source is for Spock apparently having been promoted between "Court Martial" and "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

Anyway, perhaps Decker had really only been brevetted captain during the refit of Enterprise [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevet_(military)], so that technically he wasn't demoted at all.

 

[Timo]

So either there were more ships in the fleet than the graphic accounted for

Yup. The E-D graphic shows seventeen ships only; so does the corresponding Romulan graphic. Yet Picard says he wants twenty ships for his blockade fleet, and Romulans subsequently observe a fleet of "at least" twenty ships approaching. Quite possibly, then, a few of the ships had to turn back before the net was deployed - or were incapable of contributing to the net and just loitered nearby for other purposes. The observed Constellation class vessel could be one of those.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Spock's rank was given as lieutenant commander in "Court Martial", although in TOS (with the exception of The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before) he always wore commander's stripes.

I think the same thing happened with Tuvok -- he was called lieutenant while wearing lt. commander pins (though he was eventually promoted to the latter rank, perhaps to correct the discrepancy). Could be misremembering, though.

Anyway, perhaps Decker had really only been brevetted captain during the refit of Enterprise [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevet_(military)], so that technically he wasn't demoted at all.

Except that Kirk called it a "temporary grade reduction to commander," suggesting it was just for the duration of the mission. (And that was really unnecessary anyway. Kirk could've simply made the Enterprise his personal flagship -- not in the vernacular sense of "most prestigious ship in the fleet," but in the literal sense of the vessel an admiral commands from -- with Decker in command of the vessel while Kirk led the actual mission as an admiral.)

Although his use of "grade" rather than "rank" means that it wasn't just a matter of job description as I suggested before. According to this site:

Bottom Line: The difference between grade and rank is that grade is a major step in the promotion process. Rank is seniority between two people of the same grade.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Spock's rank was given as lieutenant commander in "Court Martial", although in TOS (with the exception of The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before) he always wore commander's stripes.

I think the same thing happened with Tuvok -- he was called lieutenant while wearing lt. commander pins (though he was eventually promoted to the latter rank, perhaps to correct the discrepancy). Could be misremembering, though.

Anyway, perhaps Decker had really only been brevetted captain during the refit of Enterprise [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevet_(military)], so that technically he wasn't demoted at all.

Except that Kirk called it a "temporary grade reduction to commander," suggesting it was just for the duration of the mission. (And that was really unnecessary anyway. Kirk could've simply made the Enterprise his personal flagship -- not in the vernacular sense of "most prestigious ship in the fleet," but in the literal sense of the vessel an admiral commands from -- with Decker in command of the vessel while Kirk led the actual mission as an admiral.)

Although his use of "grade" rather than "rank" means that it wasn't just a matter of job description as I suggested before. According to this site:

Bottom Line: The difference between grade and rank is that grade is a major step in the promotion process. Rank is seniority between two people of the same grade.

Well I was thinking that, if brevets were the case, you could interpret Kirk's words to mean a promise that he'll get his brevet back after it was all over.

I don't think any interpretation makes perfect sense.

Demoting Decker really only served the function of restoring the crew as it was on the TV show, pegging him as expendable and telegraphing him leaving by the end.

Note also that Kirk wore captain's stripes even though he was an admiral. Does this mean that, in Starfleet, grade is what you see on your uniform but rank is what's on your service record?

 

[Timo]

It might be that Kirk had to accept a permanent reduction in rank in order to get the ship back. After all, he and Scotty seem to agree that getting command of the ship back would have been extermely difficult; perhaps Kirk had to sell his flag rank braid to accomplish this?

Mostly, our pips/braids vs. dialogue discrepancies leave our heroes with ranks lower than what their pips/braids would indicate. Tuvok in the first season is the major exception, wearing 2½ pips but formally introduced as mere Lieutenant several times (in addition to being casually called "lieutenant", which might refer to his position as Janeway's right-hand man regardless of rank). So mostly, we could argue that Starfleet is slow to acknowledge field promotions, leaving the officers at a lower rank in all paperwork even though they enjoy the commanding position (and its external indicators) in their jobs already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Joker]

Reading this thread and seeing a post from Red Ranger kinda freaked me out until I realised how old it was.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

wasnt picard an Lieutenant and took command when both the ship's captain and first officer were killed and starfleet rewarded him by promoting him to captain and giving command of the stargazer?.

 

[Timo]

That's the urban myth, yes.

Nothing of the sort is established in the actual episodes, though. The closest we come is a few words in TNG "Tapestry". Q explains how an alternate, unambitious Picard came to be in an alternate timeline:

He never lead the away team on Milika Three to save the ambassador, or take charge of the Stargazer's bridge when its captain was killed. And no one ever offered him a command.

This story in no way establishes Picard's rank at the time he took charge of the bridge. Nor does it establish that this act would have had anything to do with him being offered a command.

We can decide if we want that Lieutenant Picard took charge of the bridge, and was immediately rewarded with Captain rank and command of the Stargazer. Or we can decide it was Commander Picard, who had to wait for six more years until he got command of the Pathfinder. Or whatever.

Timo Saloniemi