What does "Remain Klingon" mean to you?

[Charles Phipps]

T'Kuvma is a character that was cut short in his existence far too soon and seems to have been a character a lot of audiences dismiss as just an evil reactionary. Certainly, he was a deeply flawed character but I also think of him more like Gowron rather than Duras. He's a character with intense biases but an awareness of the self-destructive nature of the Klingon Empire with a plan to, as Henry V would put it, "mire his enemies in foreign quarrels."

But what is his ideology really and how valuable is it?

 

[fireproof78]

A Klingon empire free of outside influences.

 

[evilchumlee]

Honestly... he's right.

His argument is that the Federation are conquerors, but they're dishonorable conquerors. They won't meet you in a fight. They're slow and insidious. They just absorb everything in their wake. "They come in peace", but really what they coming for is to supplant your civilization in favor of its own.

And it's exactly what happens.

We even know that by the 26th century, the Klingons are Federation members. At the end of the day, T'Kuvma was right in his assertation that the Federation was coming for the Klingon Empire.

Cut to Quark's "root beer" speech. "...eventually, you start to like it."

 

[Charles Phipps]

Honestly... he's right.

His argument is that the Federation are conquerors, but they're dishonorable conquerors. They won't meet you in a fight. They're slow and insidious. They just absorb everything in their wake. "They come in peace", but really what they coming for is to supplant your civilization in favor of its own.

And it's exactly what happens.

We even know that by the 26th century, the Klingons are Federation members. At the end of the day, T'Kuvma was right in his assertation that the Federation was coming for the Klingon Empire.

Cut to Quark's "root beer" speech. "...eventually, you start to like it."

Kor also said something like, "Klingons now serve meals in restaraunts to the grandchildren of men I slaughtered."

I think.

It does make me wonder what the Klingons are like in the 5th season. They've been conspicuous by their absence.

 

[Quantum21]

MAGA, America First BS

 

[evilchumlee]

It does make me wonder what the Klingons are like in the 5th season. They've been conspicuous by their absence.

I figured they omitted Klingons in 3 and 4 due to the general fan backlash to the DSC Klingons. SNW has largely fixed them, and at this point yeah I would like to know what they're up to.

I could see the Klingons not being anywhere near the first on board to rejoin the Federation, if they were even still Federation members anyway. They've been on their own for a century, so they might have all kinds of issues going on.

Especially given that warp travel is extremely limited, the Klingons have liked broken down entirely into House controlled planets. The only thing that brought them together the last time (that we know of) the Empire fell apart was T'kuvma starting a war with the Federation... they might need another war to reunite.

 

[Quantum21]

I figured they omitted Klingons in 3 and 4 due to the general fan backlash to the DSC Klingons. SNW has largely fixed them, and at this point yeah I would like to know what they're up to.

I could see the Klingons not being anywhere near the first on board to rejoin the Federation, if they were even still Federation members anyway. They've been on their own for a century, so they might have all kinds of issues going on.

Especially given that warp travel is extremely limited, the Klingons have liked broken down entirely into House controlled planets. The only thing that brought them together the last time (that we know of) the Empire fell apart was T'kuvma starting a war with the Federation... they might need another war to reunite.

They didn't need fixing. The SNW versions are more cartoonish than the Discovery Klingons which restored some menace to them.

 

[evilchumlee]

They didn't need fixing. The SNW versions are more cartoonish than the Discovery Klingons which restored some menace to them.

They're better visually.

They looked absolutely ridiculous in DSC. They needed fixing. They haven't really appeared much in SNW but beyond the musical, where... everything was cartoonish and horrible, I think they've been presented fine.

Peak cartoonish in terms of behaviors was DSC S2, where the little bit of Klingon stuff is just... absolutely over the top.

 

[Quantum21]

They're better visually.

They looked absolutely ridiculous in DSC. They needed fixing. They haven't really appeared much in SNW but beyond the musical, where... everything was cartoonish and horrible, I think they've been presented fine.

Peak cartoonish in terms of behaviors was DSC S2, where the little bit of Klingon stuff is just... absolutely over the top.

Looking different than your expectation doesn't mean they needed fixing.

I have the reverse opinion. Updating the 70s era Klingons with the moth holed unis and dodgy platform shoes was a big fix for Discovery. Champagne all around.

 

[evilchumlee]

Looking different than your expectation doesn't mean they needed fixing.

*Looking different than how it has been established that they look absolutely means they needed fixing.

But if you liked how they looked, cool! Good for you! I disagree, and it seems like the studio generally agrees with me. You can like what you like.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly... he's right.

His argument is that the Federation are conquerors, but they're dishonorable conquerors. They won't meet you in a fight. They're slow and insidious. They just absorb everything in their wake. "They come in peace", but really what they coming for is to supplant your civilization in favor of its own.

And it's exactly what happens.

We even know that by the 26th century, the Klingons are Federation members. At the end of the day, T'Kuvma was right in his assertation that the Federation was coming for the Klingon Empire.

Cut to Quark's "root beer" speech. "...eventually, you start to like it."

I think this is a fair summation of the fear T'Kumva felt, carried over by the influence of the Augment virus on the Empire. I think the idea to remain separated from the Federation's exploration and exploitive policies, in contrast to Klingon strength and need to conquer.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I dislike the DISCO redesign for the Klingons for practical reasons:

* They limit the actors facial expressions and movement.

* They don't let them speak English so its much harder on them.

Very much, DISCO "others" the Klingons.

 

[Tuskin38]

*Looking different than how it has been established that they look absolutely means they needed fixing.

What is this, 1979?
Why didn't they go back to flat heads after TMP?

And it's exactly what happens.

No it isn't. We've seen no examples of the federation forcing one unified culture onto the rest of the member planets.

If that were true, Vulcan still wouldn't have battles to the death or arranged marriages.

 

[evilchumlee]

What is this, 1979?
Why didn't they go back to flat heads after TMP?

It's a tired argument that they even addressed in the shows. Really not interested in getting dragged into that.

No it isn't. We've seen no examples of the federation forcing one unified culture onto the rest of the member planets.

If that were true, Vulcan still wouldn't have battles to the death or arranged marriages.

There is still definitely a shared Federation culture. "Forced" is the wrong term to use. It's not a matter of force, it's that the Federation... humans... have a sort of insidious nature and will just not stop until you love us, damn it.

The Klingons had a similar criticism in ST6... the "homo sapiens only club". The Federation is a multi-racial organization and yet, humans just dominate the hell out of it, and other powers see that.

 

[Cyrus]

MAGA, America First BS

Yes, I was going to say the same thing. works for me. lol

 

[Tuskin38]

The Klingons had a similar criticism in ST6... the "homo sapiens only club". The Federation is a multi-racial organization and yet, humans just dominate the hell out of it, and other powers see that.

They can see the fourth wall and hate the makeup budget.

It's a tired argument that they even addressed in the shows.

Not really, it's the exact same thing. But I won't continue the argument as you requested.

 

[Charles Phipps]

No it isn't. We've seen no examples of the federation forcing one unified culture onto the rest of the member planets.

If that were true, Vulcan still wouldn't have battles to the death or arranged marriages.

The Vulcans flat out lied about a lot of that as Kirk and McCoy had no idea of most of this.

 

[Jedi Marso]

It means: "Do not deny the Perpetual Game, the Komerex Zha." What is seen and heard under the Naked Stars will be remembered.

With love and respect to the late Mike Ford.

 

[Lord Garth]

"Remain Klingon!" is code for "Be a Star Trek III Klingon!"

 

[Cr0sis21]

Looking different than your expectation doesn't mean they needed fixing.

I have the reverse opinion. Updating the 70s era Klingons with the moth holed unis and dodgy platform shoes was a big fix for Discovery. Champagne all around.

The makeup didn't even seem updated. It just seemed weird.
And it made NO sense. Were they always hairless, then?
The Klingons were they only race that got such drastic redesigns from TOS. And I can allow them that, since obviously they had restrictions on what they could do. But Disco seemed like they changed it just to change it. The whole race was nearly unrecognizable, from makeup to ship design to weapons (What they called a bat'leth looked nothing like what came before). So yes, from a storytelling perspective, it was a mistake.