What does it mean when you say you want to see something new?

[Tarek71]

I like this idea of upping the ante with galactic political and military tensions. It would be interesting to see the Klingons go to war with the Romulans while not really caring what the Federation does. Depending on the outcome of that war, there could be a shift in the way the alliances eventually work out -- instead of Klingons later being semi-allied with the Federation, maybe the Romulans take that position.

I also think there would be a big, quadrant-wide push for colonialism from pretty much every spacefaring civilization around. You hear about the destruction of one of the founding members of the Federation and what do you think? You think, "Holy crap, if that could happen to them, it could happen to us!" Suddenly the drive to populate the stars is rather more urgent than a scientific curiosity.

Yeah, absolutely. Especially if the Romulans now know their planet is doomed. Its never said whether Nero tipped them off, but if they did find out, it would certainly change their perspective on things very considerably. Their isolation and limited contact policies could be changed.

All sorts of people with various different agendas would be looking at these changed events from different angles and impacted in diferent ways by them. The brief incursion of late 24th century technology into their time has had a huge impact on things, and thats a good ground in looking for new story lines.

 

[Captain Fine]

I really like the idea of taking what happened in this movie and exploring it. In the same way Star Treks III and IV dealt with the consequences of widespread knowledge of the Genesis device/planet. Or at the very least it served as a backdrop for our stories.

But there should definitely be consequences on all sides:

Andorians were antagonistic with the Vulcans for so long: how do they react to Vulcan's destruction?

Romulans must be upset about the loss of their ancestral homeworld.

Klingons must be upset about the loss of 47 ships to a Romulan vessel from the future.

There are so many possibilities opened up, we really should explore them.

What comes next should come naturally. I want to feel the interconnection between this movie and its sequels in the same way II, III and IV are connected.

 

[Islander]

I want something old, preferably borrowed, possibly blue.

Do you want my liver?

 

[Jon1701]

I still don't understand why people are dead-set against using the Khan character. You know, its a bit like saying:

"I'm a Batman fan - I never want to see the Joker again"

or

"I'm a Superman fan - I never want to see Lex Luthor again"

or

"I'm a Doctor Who fan - I never want to see The Master again"

or

"I'm a Knight Rider fan, I never want to see K.A.R.R. again"

(okay, maybe not the last one )

This is a reboot, a canonical one - but a reboot nontheless. I have no problem with using the character of Khan again. In fact, I welcome it. It worked the last two times. This alternate timeline is drastically different from the old one. We havent used the Khan character for over 25 years! Are we saying we can never use this character again?

Doesn't have to be like the last two times. The Botany Bay is still "lorst in space from the year niy-teen niy-ty seex!!!!!!"

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

 

[Franklin]

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

Like I've kept saying, if they have to be derivative of TOS stories in order to find what they think is a good, marketable story in this new universe, then this franchise wasn't worth bringing back. There is nothing new out there.

The other thing I've been harping on is they need to break the villain mold. I can't imagine TOS would've lasted even three seasons if every story featured a "villain of the week." The genre of science fiction is rich and open to all kinds of (commercially appealing) compelling directions for conflict in a story. Let's see something different.

 

[Jon1701]

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

Like I've kept saying, if they have to be derivative of TOS stories in order to find what they think is a good, marketable story in this new universe, then this franchise wasn't worth bringing back. There is nothing new out there.

The other thing I've been harping on is they need to break the villain mold. I can't imagine TOS would've lasted even three seasons if every story featured a "villain of the week." The genre of science fiction is rich and open to all kinds of (commercially appealing) compelling directions for conflict in a story. Let's see something different.

I'm sure the screenwriters can come up with a story that is better than my effort.

On the subject of a villain, I can't think of any action adventure Hollywood movies in the last 10 years that didn't have a villain. We need one, he doesn't have to be off the moustache twirling type, but you need a bad guy.

Star Trek is an action adventure Hollywood movie, albeit a very good one (and with all the Star Trek bits tacked on). We can't get by on malfunctioning probes and computers that-think-they-are-gods any more.

TOS didn't have a bad guy every week, but sure there were a lot of them.

 

[flemm]

Doesn't have to be like the last two times. The Botany Bay is still "lorst in space from the year niy-teen niy-ty seex!!!!!!"

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

It could. I think when most people hear "Khan," they think immediately of a remake of TWOK, which seems redundant, especially since we just saw a villain motivated by revenge who was modeled on Khan in this respect.

But if you take the character of Khan, and you let his story unfold in a different way, as you suggest, then that could be great. That's especially true in my view because the whole notion of eugenics and tinkering with human genes in general is a highly relevant one for our world.

 

[Jon1701]

Doesn't have to be like the last two times. The Botany Bay is still "lorst in space from the year niy-teen niy-ty seex!!!!!!"

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

It could. I think when most people hear "Khan," they think immediately of a remake of TWOK, which seems redundant, especially since we just saw a villain motivated by revenge who was modeled on Khan in this respect.

But if you take the character of Khan, and you let his story unfold in a different way, as you suggest, then that could be great. That's especially true in my view because the whole notion of eugenics and tinkering with human genes in general is a highly relevant one for our world.

Exactly.

Although, after thought - they'll probably have to drop the 1996 tag and fudge it for the 21st Century.

But I'm fine with that

 

[Jayson]

Doesn't have to be like the last two times. The Botany Bay is still "lorst in space from the year niy-teen niy-ty seex!!!!!!"

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

It could. I think when most people hear "Khan," they think immediately of a remake of TWOK, which seems redundant, especially since we just saw a villain motivated by revenge who was modeled on Khan in this respect.

But if you take the character of Khan, and you let his story unfold in a different way, as you suggest, then that could be great. That's especially true in my view because the whole notion of eugenics and tinkering with human genes in general is a highly relevant one for our world.

I agree. Khan has atributes that can contribute to having some dramatic depth to him and he atrributes that can work in terms of being kewl. That is a good combination when your talking about a action-adventure movie.

I got another question for everyone! What would a new alien race bring to a movie? You would get kewl new ships and i'm sure they would look awesome in terms of makeup. I'm just trying to figure out how these type of aliens would resonate in terms of drama. You can go route of the Xindi and basically imply they have always been around and we have never seen them before. This might work on tv where you can build up the new aliens. To me that would feel cheap in a 2-hour movie. you can say they were just discovered. To me I don't see how where the drama comes from in terms of mattering to the characters or feeling relevant in terms of the established mythos. To me you might end up getting another "Ressurection" where you have a glorified 2-hour tv episode.

New aliens,especially bumpy-headed new aliens,scream tv and Rick Berman to me. Seen it to much on Berman trek. You might get a decent adventure with new aliens but it seems like a very hollow type of adventure. I want a villian that matters.

Jason

 

[Captain Fine]

Doesn't have to be like the last two times. The Botany Bay is still "lorst in space from the year niy-teen niy-ty seex!!!!!!"

Drifting in space somewhere. Maybe the Klingons find her. Or some Vulcan refugees. I mean, why can't the new movie open with the Klingons running into the Botany Bay?

It could. I think when most people hear "Khan," they think immediately of a remake of TWOK, which seems redundant, especially since we just saw a villain motivated by revenge who was modeled on Khan in this respect.

But if you take the character of Khan, and you let his story unfold in a different way, as you suggest, then that could be great. That's especially true in my view because the whole notion of eugenics and tinkering with human genes in general is a highly relevant one for our world.

Exactly.

Although, after thought - they'll probably have to drop the 1996 tag and fudge it for the 21st Century.

But I'm fine with that

Agreed. This has to be about OUR future, not the future from the 1960s. It can easily hint at stem cell research and all the controversy regarding cloning today. This is one case where I think we should let the canon slide, especially since what was in "canon" never happened in real life!

 

[Jayson]

It could. I think when most people hear "Khan," they think immediately of a remake of TWOK, which seems redundant, especially since we just saw a villain motivated by revenge who was modeled on Khan in this respect.

But if you take the character of Khan, and you let his story unfold in a different way, as you suggest, then that could be great. That's especially true in my view because the whole notion of eugenics and tinkering with human genes in general is a highly relevant one for our world.

Exactly.

Although, after thought - they'll probably have to drop the 1996 tag and fudge it for the 21st Century.

But I'm fine with that

Agreed. This has to be about OUR future, not the future from the 1960s. It can easily hint at stem cell research and all the controversy regarding cloning today. This is one case where I think we should let the canon slide, especially since what was in "canon" never happened in real life!

Maybe but I also see it as a chance to use the product placement in a more natural way. I could see a movie with Khan opening in the "present day" and showing the Eugencis War and showing how Khan was able to escape. Show us a bombed out Burger King or have Khan use a Nokia product. Personally I think they should just do the "x-Men" riff and call it the "near future" instead of establishing a specific date.

Jason

 

[flemm]

Exactly.

Although, after thought - they'll probably have to drop the 1996 tag and fudge it for the 21st Century.

But I'm fine with that

Agreed. This has to be about OUR future, not the future from the 1960s. It can easily hint at stem cell research and all the controversy regarding cloning today. This is one case where I think we should let the canon slide, especially since what was in "canon" never happened in real life!

Yeah, exactly. There is a reason why Khan is so compelling (and it is not that he quotes Shakespeare ). He provides a good, relevant sci-fi concept, while also providing the ultimate adversary for the crew of the Enterprise: an adversary that challenges their humanity, their wits, guts and strength. Frankly Space Seed and TWOK barely scratched the surface of what could be done with this character.

 

[Islander]

Stories of actuality aren't that interesting in this theme. It's predicting them that makes awesome stories.

Khan is a genetically enhance being, something that was certainly not a general topic of discussion on the news in the 60s. It's not even now anymore, we actually mostly got bored of stemcell research debates and crap.

A good writer would come up with something that will be headlines in say 10-15 years. So that's what we mean by "something new". And that is why Khan is not that much of interest from a science-fiction point of view.

 

[flemm]

Stories of actuality aren't that interesting in this theme. It's predicting them that makes awesome stories.

Khan is a genetically enhance being, something that was certainly not a general topic of discussion on the news in the 60s. It's not even now anymore, we actually mostly got bored of stemcell research debates and crap.

A good writer would come up with something that will be headlines in say 10-15 years. So that's what we mean by "something new". And that is why Khan is not that much of interest from a science-fiction point of view.

Obviously the movie would not be about "stem-cell research and crap." Questions of genetic enhancement and tinkering with the genome are in fact likely to be a much bigger issue in 10-15 years or (40-50 years) than they are now.

The link between the film and themes relevant to the modern world need not be (and should not be) heavy-handed, but it should be there. With Khan, they are there effortlessly, because they are part of what makes him a cool adversary.

I am not an advocate of Khan specifically for the sequel, but there is no reason why he could not work if handled correctly.

 

[Jayson]

Stories of actuality aren't that interesting in this theme. It's predicting them that makes awesome stories.

Khan is a genetically enhance being, something that was certainly not a general topic of discussion on the news in the 60s. It's not even now anymore, we actually mostly got bored of stemcell research debates and crap.

A good writer would come up with something that will be headlines in say 10-15 years. So that's what we mean by "something new". And that is why Khan is not that much of interest from a science-fiction point of view.

Yes but let's not forget that this guy was wanting to commit genocide. That is a theme that never become irrelvent. I have also wondered if their was a racial or realgious aspect to the Eugenics War. Why not use Khan as a means of exploring religion? What if Khan doesn't have his memories and is found by, lets say some Christian zealots, who left earth because as we know agnostic and aithesim seems to be the major beleif system in Trek when it comes to humans. They see Khan as there Godefroy de Bouillion. In essence the chrisitan Crusades have made a comeback, only with more sophistciated technolgy at their disposal.

Jason

 

[Islander]

Stories of actuality aren't that interesting in this theme. It's predicting them that makes awesome stories.

Khan is a genetically enhance being, something that was certainly not a general topic of discussion on the news in the 60s. It's not even now anymore, we actually mostly got bored of stemcell research debates and crap.

A good writer would come up with something that will be headlines in say 10-15 years. So that's what we mean by "something new". And that is why Khan is not that much of interest from a science-fiction point of view.

Yes but let's not forget that this guy was wanting to commit genocide. That is a theme that never become irrelvent. I have also wondered if their was a racial or realgious aspect to the Eugenics War. Why not use Khan as a means of exploring religion? What if Khan doesn't have his memories and is found by, lets say some Christian zealots, who left earth because as we know agnostic and aithesim seems to be the major beleif system in Trek when it comes to humans. They see Khan as there Godefroy de Bouillion. In essence the chrisitan Crusades have made a comeback, only with more sophistciated technolgy at their disposal.

Jason

That's interesting in playing with our fears that a small group of extremists may start a war. Again, that's past news. 7 years and 8 months old to be precise.

 

[flemm]

That's interesting in playing with our fears that a small group of extremists may start a war. Again, that's past news. 7 years and 8 months old to be precise.

A certain type of hard sci-fi might measure success by its ability to foresee how science might affect our world in ways that have not entered the public consciousness as yet.

Star Trek has occasionally touched on a hard sci-fi concept of this type, but its prominence in popular culture owes virtually nothing to this type of thinking.

The basic Star Trek concept is thrilling, compelling and enduring, and it has nothing to do with its ability to predict the immediate future as hard sci-fi sometimes tries to do

 

[Islander]

That's interesting in playing with our fears that a small group of extremists may start a war. Again, that's past news. 7 years and 8 months old to be precise.

A certain type of hard sci-fi might measure success by its ability to foresee how science might affect our world in ways that have not entered the public consciousness as yet.

Star Trek has occasionally touched on a hard sci-fi concept of this type, but its prominence in popular culture owes virtually nothing to this type of thinking.

The basic Star Trek concept is thrilling, compelling and enduring, and it has nothing to do with its ability to predict the immediate future as hard sci-fi sometimes tries to do

Trek deals more with social sciences than aplied ones, but it is very well what you call a hard sci-fi. It's just more romanticize to make it accessible, but the foundation definitely fits.

Khan is the best example. Genetic manipulation was not a topic at all in the 60s, not even in the early 80s when to movie was made.

Another example is the voyage home. Obviously, the probe is an analogy but even if whales are not fully extinct, we now know that bad things will happen to the eco-system if it happens. Or anything else environmental for that matter. Greenpeace were crazy granola lunatics when this movie was released.

 

[flemm]

Trek deals more with social sciences than aplied ones, but it is very well what you call a hard sci-fi. It's just more romanticize to make it accessible, but the foundation definitely fits.

Khan is the best example. Genetic manipulation was not a topic at all in the 60s, not even in the early 80s when to movie was made.

Another example is the voyage home. Obviously, the probe is an analogy but even if whales are not fully extinct, we now know that bad things will happen to the eco-system if it happens. Or anything else environmental for that matter. Greenpeace were crazy granola lunatics when this movie was released.

What you are over-emphasizing is the importance of predicting some future concern, as opposed to the movie's subject matter being of immediate relevance to the audience. TVH was successful because it was entertaining and because the issues it dealt with seemed relevant. Any future sequel will aim for that same combination: exciting entertainment, and relevant ideas.

Sci-fi's ability to "predict" the future is a crapshoot anyway. Mostly sci-fi throws out a bunch of ideas and occasionally one turns out to be more or less accurate. But that isn't what defines good sci-fi.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

I don't mind if they use old or new enemy as long as the storyline is original with good dialogues. Its easy to put a lot of depth into, lets say, and ex-klingon general which want to have earth, vulcan or the federation destroyed. Its really about the plot line, their actual plan and the dialogue. They shouldn't use the back catalog only for nostalgia reasons.

Obviously, the story can always be something else, like an epic journey in uncharted space to discover the encrypted diamond crystal which will save earth.