What does it mean when you say you want to see something new?

[Jayson]

I keep hearing this sentiment show up in all the Khan threads. I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by this? Would a recylced story set in a new galaxy with aliens we have never seen before count as being new? I'm still not seeing how those elements count as new since we have seen plently of alien-of the weeks as I call them in Trek. I mean the snow monsters were new,in the sense that we have never seen those exact creatures before, but I have seen CGI monster before so I wouldn't call them "New" in my defination.

I want to see new things as well but for me that means seeing the characters go down different paths than the orignal and seeing alot of the familiar elements altered and shfted around in ways that didn't happen in the Prime universe. I want to see Spock become more human or have Uhura be a member of Section 31 or have McCoy be gay and explain that is why is marriage had fallen apart. Do things that will shock us with the characters.

You can shift the other elements around as well. Have Khan come back with his memories erased,make Carol Marcus a villian, Have the Klingons be conquered by the Romulans. I want see things I don't expect to see. I don't want to see boring bumpy headed aliens I have no real emotional investment in like the Son'a as the big villian.

Jason

 

[theFirebottle]

In my ideal world, the movie would result in one film sequel and then a TV series.

There would be a balance between three things: stuff we've seen before played out with the new-'verse tweaking, stuff we've seen before that happens completely differently from the original, and stuff we've never seen before.

There would be a balance between two formats: one-episode stories where the plot is resolved by the end and there are few lasting consequences, and ongoing arc stories that take a while to build up and have many lasting consequences.

And lastly there would be a balance of character spotlight that gives everyone not just a day in the spotlight but some real chance at character development and action. We got more development on some of the TOS characters in a two hour movie than we got in three seasons of TOS and a stack of movies.

 

[Jon1701]

I want something old, preferably borrowed, possibly blue.

 

[Silent_Bob]

I keep hearing this sentiment show up in all the Khan threads. I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by this? Would a recylced story set in a new galaxy with aliens we have never seen before count as being new? I'm still not seeing how those elements count as new since we have seen plently of alien-of the weeks as I call them in Trek. I mean the snow monsters were new,in the sense that we have never seen those exact creatures before, but I have seen CGI monster before so I wouldn't call them "New" in my defination.

I want to see new things as well but for me that means seeing the characters go down different paths than the orignal and seeing alot of the familiar elements altered and shfted around in ways that didn't happen in the Prime universe. I want to see Spock become more human or have Uhura be a member of Section 31 or have McCoy be gay and explain that is why is marriage had fallen apart. Do things that will shock us with the characters.

You can shift the other elements around as well. Have Khan come back with his memories erased,make Carol Marcus a villian, Have the Klingons be conquered by the Romulans. I want see things I don't expect to see. I don't want to see boring bumpy headed aliens I have no real emotional investment in like the Son'a as the big villian.

Jason

But if Khan is radically different to the Khan we know, and the writers love, then whats the point in using him anyway? Why would you have an emotional investment in a character that has almost nothing in common with his predecessor apart from his name?

Star Trek has always had weak villains, because they show up and die within the same film. They have no time to form a connection with the audience, especially when some only get five minutes of screen time. Unless they introduce a recurring villain in the next film, i cant see a new character - or one with a familiar name, ever having the impact you want.

Personally i am hoping that the whole Centauri eel thing with Pike is a set up for the next film. Imagine it, Pike being compromised and being the villain of the next film. Now that would provide an emotional punch.

 

[Borgminister]

It is very simple, really. Khan was a newly conceived villain. The Borg were a newly conceived villain. Star Trek the reboot has nothing really to draw upon in terms of classic villains, it being the first in hopefully a trilogy of movies.

I think they can use something vaguely familiar as a backdrop--Guardian of Forever or Mirror Universe--but that's it... the villain of the next story should be brand new, so that the new iteration of the franchise can stand truly on its own.

 

[Jayson]

I keep hearing this sentiment show up in all the Khan threads. I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by this? Would a recylced story set in a new galaxy with aliens we have never seen before count as being new? I'm still not seeing how those elements count as new since we have seen plently of alien-of the weeks as I call them in Trek. I mean the snow monsters were new,in the sense that we have never seen those exact creatures before, but I have seen CGI monster before so I wouldn't call them "New" in my defination.

I want to see new things as well but for me that means seeing the characters go down different paths than the orignal and seeing alot of the familiar elements altered and shfted around in ways that didn't happen in the Prime universe. I want to see Spock become more human or have Uhura be a member of Section 31 or have McCoy be gay and explain that is why is marriage had fallen apart. Do things that will shock us with the characters.

You can shift the other elements around as well. Have Khan come back with his memories erased,make Carol Marcus a villian, Have the Klingons be conquered by the Romulans. I want see things I don't expect to see. I don't want to see boring bumpy headed aliens I have no real emotional investment in like the Son'a as the big villian.

Jason

But if Khan is radically different to the Khan we know, and the writers love, then whats the point in using him anyway? Why would you have an emotional investment in a character that has almost nothing in common with his predecessor apart from his name?

Star Trek has always had weak villains, because they show up and die within the same film. They have no time to form a connection with the audience, especially when some only get five minutes of screen time. Unless they introduce a recurring villain in the next film, i cant see a new character - or one with a familiar name, ever having the impact you want.

Personally i am hoping that the whole Centauri eel thing with Pike is a set up for the next film. Imagine it, Pike being compromised and being the villain of the next film. Now that would provide an emotional punch.

To me the appeal of seeing a different version of Khan is the same as seeing different versions of the TOS crew. It's a chance to see how these beloved characters are going to go different paths than they do in the Prime Universe. In essence this is also the appeal of all alternate timeline stories or a show like "Sliders." The fun is to see the world we know turned upside down.

One reason I am agaisnt a new alien species as the Big villian is I feel like we have seen this done a million times in Trek. In fact it was done every week on "Voyager" and "Enterprise" it seems. It's really hard to give a dam about any of those guys. While it did work for the Dominion they had the benefit of being depicted on tv where you can spend time really building them up and giving them some depth. The Benefit of using someone like Khan is that even though he won't be the same we will sort of know who the guy is or was which sort of gives him some depth that some guy or species that shows up out of nowhere won't have. To make a villian intresting I feel he or the species needs to have something extra beyond having kewl spaceships or being played by a good actor.

Jason

 

[Jayson]

It is very simple, really. Khan was a newly conceived villain. The Borg were a newly conceived villain. Star Trek the reboot has nothing really to draw upon in terms of classic villains, it being the first in hopefully a trilogy of movies.

I think they can use something vaguely familiar as a backdrop--Guardian of Forever or Mirror Universe--but that's it... the villain of the next story should be brand new, so that the new iteration of the franchise can stand truly on its own.

Unless the villians become ongoing though I don't see how they would play a huge role in defining the Abramsverse. When they eventually do a tv show then that is where a new alien species can work. To me the movies though will be defined by how they shake up everything that feels familiar in "TOS' and puts a new spin on it. To me bringing in a new alien species just seems like something Berman would do. That is why we got stuck with the Son'a and the Remans. To me a new alien species will only work if they go with the V'ger,Whale Probe Force of nature type of alien. In otherwords you might want something you can be in awe at or can be scary in that you can't reason with it but I still think you do need a more realtable villian or a more realtable source of conflict in this type of movie.

Jason

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

A new villian doesn't have to either be a new species or a recycled character. It can be a new character from a familiar species (you know.. like they did with Kruge, General Chang, Soran, Nero).

 

[flemm]

I don't see any reason why we could not have a new take on a classic adversary AND a new alien species. The new species does not have to be the villian. They could be the source of the conflict, or their planet could be what is being fought over.

Personally, I think we will see Klingons as the main adversary in the sequel, with of course a particular Klingon as the main representative, possibly a recognizable name, like Kang or Kor, possibly a new face.

Klingons have everything you want in the sequel's villian. A fierce adversary that thrives in combat, both physical and strategical. They are iconic, certainly in Trek lore and to a lesser degree in pop culture as a whole. They look cool and could look even cooler when revamped for the movie. They would be recognizable, and yet you could take a story with them in almost any direction. Even something as simple as Klingons looking to conquer a newly discovered civilisation rich in whatever resource, and the Enterprise intervening, could make for a great film.

 

[Borgminister]

I don't see any reason why we could not have a new take on a classic adversary AND a new alien species. The new species does not have to be the villian. They could be the source of the conflict, or their planet could be what is being fought over.

Personally, I think we will see Klingons as the main adversary in the sequel, with of course a particular Klingon as the main representative, possibly a recognizable name, like Kang or Kor, possibly a new face.

Klingons have everything you want in the sequel's villian. A fierce adversary that thrives in combat, both physical and strategical. They are iconic, certainly in Trek lore and to a lesser degree in pop culture as a whole. They look cool and could look even cooler when revamped for the movie. They would be recognizable, and yet you could take a story with them in almost any direction. Even something as simple as Klingons looking to conquer a newly discovered civilisation rich in whatever resource, and the Enterprise intervening, could make for a great film.

You may be right given the Burger King promotion for Trek...It'll be built-in next movie...

 

[Overgeeked]

What I mean is not another Romulan, Klingon, Ferengi, Cardassian, Borg, Dominion, time travel / set things right, no more multi-million dollar Greece Peace adverts, etc.

I want a new villain. If it has to be an alien, then it's gotta be a new species. I don't want Khan or any of the others, some new villain. Make this different. Make it new.

I want a new story, not a rehash of a TOS episode (or any other series). I want the writers to show us what they can do with the universe that is uniquely theirs. It doesn't have to be grand and sweeping, or filled with technobabble. Just give me a new story that's well told.

You know, new.

 

[Borgminister]

What I mean is not another Romulan, Klingon, Ferengi, Cardassian, Borg, Dominion, time travel / set things right, no more multi-million dollar Greece Peace adverts, etc.

I want a new villain. If it has to be an alien, then it's gotta be a new species. I don't want Khan or any of the others, some new villain. Make this different. Make it new.

I want a new story, not a rehash of a TOS episode (or any other series). I want the writers to show us what they can do with the universe that is uniquely theirs. It doesn't have to be grand and sweeping, or filled with technobabble. Just give me a new story that's well told.

You know, new.

Although I liked Star Trek and you didn't, I completely agree with this. Except that surroundings unique to the TOS world should be incorporated. The villain should be brand new, this being an alternate universe and all.

 

[Captain Fine]

Count me in as wanting something new, and not a rehash of TOS scripts. I want to boldy go where we've never been before, not humbly retrace the steps already laid out for us.

 

[Jayson]

Count me in as wanting something new, and not a rehash of TOS scripts. I want to boldy go where we've never been before, not humbly retrace the steps already laid out for us.

Even the biggest Khan fans don't want them to just dust of a old script. I keep seeing this comparison. Using Khan=rehashed script. I can only asume people are afraid that they would use Khan to do "Wrath of Khan part 2" I don't think that is what people wants to see. I think people want to see what they do with Khan that is different from what we have sene him do before. They feel that Khan has intresting personality traits that is worth revisting or they like his backstory that would transition well into a new story. The important word though is NEW STORY.

As for seeing new worlds. To me this brings up a nit I have with fans expectations. How many times have we seen fans feel the answer is to go to a new galaxy or whatnot. I guarntee you that the same type of aliens will be there as they are in the AQ. Aliens come in basically 4 different varieties

1 Forehead humanoid=Basically a human with wierd quirks.
2Foce of Nature aliens=Borg,V'Ger etc
3monsters=Many examples throughtout movie hisotry.
4 humanoid/monster=Gorn,Jem'Haddar etc

Alot of this stuff is superfical. Look at how good "Ds9" was compared to "Voyager" yet Ds9 had one new alien species(dominion) of any importance and the rest of the aliens were the old familiar types. "Voyager" had new aliens but they weren't all that different from anything we haven't seen before and since they didn't usually have any real impact of the show beyond that week's adventure they didn't have what I would call, extra depth to them. They sometimes were intresting but I can't say I much cared about them and the DQ never felt like living breathing place like the AQ has been able to do with 40 something years of established canon and history.

To me the Abramsverse will only feel new to me if I feel like there really taking chances to with the characters and the universe. Blowing up Vulcan is gutsy thing to do. Blowing up some random planet filled with aliens we have never seen before wouldn't mean a thing to the audience. Just look at the destruction of Veridan compared to the danger Veridan 3 was in during "Generations." Did anyone really give a shit if the planet exploded? Also if "Vulcan" had exploded on Berman's watch I know we would all expect the reset button to be pushed. That's what I like about the Abramsverse. You can messing around with canon and not worry about the reset button being pushed and erasing all the drama. With new aliens though i'm not sure if it would matter or not because in the end nobody will give a shit about their fate one way or another. Unless your going to bake them a ongoing part of the franchise. That is why I would love to see a new alien as a good guy who becomes a main character in the movies. That would give us a reason to care about him and his people and thus they would be a intresting addition to the trek mythos. I don't think you can do that with villians who will be in a single movie and are never heard from again.

Jason

 

[Jayson]

I don't see any reason why we could not have a new take on a classic adversary AND a new alien species. The new species does not have to be the villian. They could be the source of the conflict, or their planet could be what is being fought over.

Personally, I think we will see Klingons as the main adversary in the sequel, with of course a particular Klingon as the main representative, possibly a recognizable name, like Kang or Kor, possibly a new face.

Klingons have everything you want in the sequel's villian. A fierce adversary that thrives in combat, both physical and strategical. They are iconic, certainly in Trek lore and to a lesser degree in pop culture as a whole. They look cool and could look even cooler when revamped for the movie. They would be recognizable, and yet you could take a story with them in almost any direction. Even something as simple as Klingons looking to conquer a newly discovered civilisation rich in whatever resource, and the Enterprise intervening, could make for a great film.

I wouldn't mind this aproach but we sort of already just did that with Nero. My personal favorite idea would be to use Captain Garth. I liked his backstory. I like the idea of a Starfleet captain going insane. I also sort of like the idea of Carol Marcus as a villian. I would love to see the Cardasians play a role in the movies as well. That or show us Talos on a big screen budget and explore aspects of thep lanet we might not know about. To me Khan isn't my first choice as a villian. I just don't see how he is a bad choice.

Jason

 

[flemm]

I wouldn't mind this aproach but we sort of already just did that with Nero. My personal favorite idea would be to use Captain Garth. I liked his backstory. I like the idea of a Starfleet captain going insane. I also sort of like the idea of Carol Marcus as a villian. I would love to see the Cardasians play a role in the movies as well. That or show us Talos on a big screen budget and explore aspects of thep lanet we might not know about. To me Khan isn't my first choice as a villian. I just don't see how he is a bad choice.

I think you want to open up the world a bit in the second movie. Conflict within Starfleet itself doesn't really accomplish that.

I also disagree that encountering Klingons would necessarily be similar at all to the dealing with Nero. This was a Romulan miner from the future on an insane quest for revenge. If the crew were opposed by a Klingon captain presumably he would be a warrior from the present motivated by something other than revenge. Sure he could be Cardassian, but that culture is less clearly defined and that race is less iconic, so I don't think that would be a stronger choice.

Mostly what matters is that the villain has some other motivation than revenge, which is one reason why Khan doesn't necessarily inspire a lot of enthusiasm, though it could potentially work if the story arc were different from what we originally saw.

I don't personally have a strong opinion at this point, but I do think that logically the writers will turn to the Klingons at some point. In many ways they are Kirk's natural adversaries.

 

[Jayson]

I wouldn't mind this aproach but we sort of already just did that with Nero. My personal favorite idea would be to use Captain Garth. I liked his backstory. I like the idea of a Starfleet captain going insane. I also sort of like the idea of Carol Marcus as a villian. I would love to see the Cardasians play a role in the movies as well. That or show us Talos on a big screen budget and explore aspects of thep lanet we might not know about. To me Khan isn't my first choice as a villian. I just don't see how he is a bad choice.

I think you want to open up the world a bit in the second movie. Conflict within Starfleet itself doesn't really accomplish that.

I also disagree that encountering Klingons would necessarily be similar at all to the dealing with Nero. This was a Romulan miner from the future on an insane quest for revenge. If the crew were opposed by a Klingon captain presumably he would be a warrior from the present motivated by something other than revenge. Sure he could be Cardassian, but that culture is less clearly defined and that race is less iconic, so I don't think that would be a stronger choice.

Mostly what matters is that the villain has some other motivation than revenge, which is one reason why Khan doesn't necessarily inspire a lot of enthusiasm, though it could potentially work if the story arc were different from what we originally saw.

I don't personally have a strong opinion at this point, but I do think that logically the writers will turn to the Klingons at some point. In many ways they are Kirk's natural adversaries.

I very much agree with you on not having revenge as the driving motivation of the enemy. Even if they use Khan they shouldn't go that angle. That or switch it around and have Kirk who wants revenge on Khan.

As for the Klingons I am curious about them. I sort of want to see them to see what Abrams take on them would be like but I am also worried that that they might have been played out to much. Maybe have them enslaved by the Romulans and turn them into terrorist. I Kind of like the idea of Klingons who are forgoing things like honor to try and drive the enemy out. That or lets see what the Klingons would look like as a emotionally beaten down race.

Jason

 

[22 Stars]

I i wanted to hear the same old tired dramatic notes being played, I would just sit and read this BBS all day.... oh, nevermind...

 

[Tarek71]

Well I think they should reap what they have sown. Did the Klingons just see 47 of their ships wiped out by a single Romulan ship? How could that now have repercussions? If what appeared to be a Chinese ship sank 47 US Navy ships, would the US just shrug and say "oh well". Wouldnt there be a war? Huge military buildup, increased tensions. Preservation of their race?

Wouldnt the Section 31 of 2258 be meditating on how powerful even a Romulan mining ship is from the future. How Vulcan was destroyed, and Earth nearly so because of these events? Maybe we should deal with the Romulans now before we ever have to take chances later. Or help the Klingons do it.

I know some people dont want to see more of Section 31 or the Klingons or Romulans, but it seems like these would be pretty gigantic events, and they cant just have emotional consequences for individual characters. Fleets and planets getting wiped out have very large consequences in all sorts of unavoidable ways.

If you want new, they should start by looking at how the timeline changed and would be new as a result. I dont mind some of the same species. But circumstances have changed. Namely the stakes seemed to have been rasied.

I especially dont mind the Klingons since they are Kirks's lifelong nemesis. But if the Klingons in Prime Timeline felt squeezed and pressured by the Federation at the time of Errand of Mercy, how much more so now because of whats happened. I dont know, but it seems worth looking into that.

 

[theFirebottle]

Well I think they should reap what they have sown. Did the Klingons just see 47 of their ships wiped out by a single Romulan ship? How could that now have repercussions? If what appeared to be a Chinese ship sank 47 US Navy ships, would the US just shrug and say "oh well". Wouldnt there be a war? Huge military buildup, increased tensions. Preservation of their race?

Wouldnt the Section 31 of 2258 be meditating on how powerful even a Romulan mining ship is from the future. How Vulcan was destroyed, and Earth nearly so because of these events? Maybe we should deal with the Romulans now before we ever have to take chances later. Or help the Klingons do it.

I know some people dont want to see more of Section 31 or the Klingons or Romulans, but it seems like these would be pretty gigantic events, and they cant just have emotional consequences for individual characters. Fleets and planets getting wiped out have very large consequences in all sorts of unavoidable ways.

If you want new, they should start by looking at how the timeline changed and would be new as a result. I dont mind some of the same species. But circumstances have changed. Namely the stakes seemed to have been rasied.

I especially dont mind the Klingons since they are Kirks's lifelong nemesis. But if the Klingons in Prime Timeline felt squeezed and pressured by the Federation at the time of Errand of Mercy, how much more so now because of whats happened. I dont know, but it seems worth looking into that.

I like this idea of upping the ante with galactic political and military tensions. It would be interesting to see the Klingons go to war with the Romulans while not really caring what the Federation does. Depending on the outcome of that war, there could be a shift in the way the alliances eventually work out -- instead of Klingons later being semi-allied with the Federation, maybe the Romulans take that position.

I also think there would be a big, quadrant-wide push for colonialism from pretty much every spacefaring civilization around. You hear about the destruction of one of the founding members of the Federation and what do you think? You think, "Holy crap, if that could happen to them, it could happen to us!" Suddenly the drive to populate the stars is rather more urgent than a scientific curiosity.