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What do you consider to be the Prime Timeline?

HotRod

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Taking the hint from the ever venerable @M'Sharak.... lets move this argument to someplace more appropriate.

What do you consider to be the Prime Timeline?

There's been a great deal of infighting amongst the fandom over this subject.

There are those who go by what TPTB say on the matter. That every show and film, save for the Kelvin films, is part of the Prime timeline.

There are those who insist that because of visual differences and possibly different interpretations of continuity, that certain shows should be excluded from the Prime Timeline.

And then there are those envious people that simply don't care.

Where do you stand on the matter?
 
Setting aside all the minuscule timeline changes shown in various TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY episodes over the years, I consider everything from TOS to ST:FC to be the original prime timeline. After the events of FC, the timeline changed from 2063 onwards to the point where ENT existed when it didn’t exist before, and begat both the pre-Kelvin timeline events and the current events from DSC/PIC/SNW/LDS onward, which I call the nuPrime timeline. However, I treat Prodigy as taking place in the original prime continuity after the events of “Endgame.”

(For clarity’s sake, I need to point out that while the events of FC took place during VOY’s run, I consider the entirety of VOY’s run to take place in the original prime timeline continuity before FC changed everything. So ‘Endgame’ would be the last time we saw the original prime timeline until Prodigy.)
 
I consider every episode to take place in its own universe/timeline. That way, any inconsistencies between episodes don't matter ;)

Seriously though, I'd go with what TPTB say, it's their game after all. Inconsistencies don't bother me too much, unless they're major. Likewise, consider visual differences just the artefact of storytelling. (Of course a ship from a show of the 60's is going to look more dated than a ship from a show from the 00's or today, even when it's supposedly from an earlier era in the Star Trek saga).
 
Seriously though, I'd go with what TPTB say, it's their game after all. Inconsistencies don't bother me too much, unless they're major. Likewise, consider visual differences just the artefact of storytelling. (Of course a ship from a show of the 60's is going to look more dated than a ship from a show from the 00's or today, even when it's supposedly from an earlier era in the Star Trek saga).

I find this to be the most reasonable approach.
 
There’s that one scene at the beginning of that one early Deep Space Nine episode: O’Brien is seen in his bed, waking up, looking at his watch, rubbing his eyes and then turning around to snooze for another couple of minutes before he has to get up. It’s not very well known, but this brief moment is actually the only instance in all of Star Trek that’s actually showing the original, completely unchanged, “prime” timeline. Everything else you know — every other scene, episode, season, show and movie — is actually set in an alternate, parallel, mirror or otherwise changed timeline that derives from that first pristine timeline with Miles sleeping.

It’s a fact and well, now you know.




:shifty:
 
Most of Parallels wasn't in the prime timeline tho :cool:

Seriously, aside from the Kelvinverse movies, I consider all of it the prime timeline. :shrug:
 
With how much time travel occurs in the franchise, what really is the original or prime timeline anyway? How many times have our characters died in an episode across TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT only for the timeline to be altered and now they're alive?

In any case, all the time travel shenanigans is how I reconcile the visual differences that crop up. That's why the constitution class ships can look like how they did in TOS one day, how they appear in SNW another, and then back to the TOS version in Picard. Some whippersnapper moves a chair in the past.
 
And Klingons.... They've changed looks more than the Mustang had in the past fifty years...
 
Whatever they want it to be at the time. SNW can move the Eugenics Wars and explicitly alter the timeline but then crossover with Lower Decks and it's all business as usual.

It's a television show.
 
Setting aside all the minuscule timeline changes shown in various TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY episodes over the years, I consider everything from TOS to ST:FC to be the original prime timeline. After the events of FC, the timeline changed from 2063 onwards to the point where ENT existed when it didn’t exist before, and begat both the pre-Kelvin timeline events and the current events from DSC/PIC/SNW/LDS onward, which I call the nuPrime timeline. However, I treat Prodigy as taking place in the original prime continuity after the events of “Endgame.”

(For clarity’s sake, I need to point out that while the events of FC took place during VOY’s run, I consider the entirety of VOY’s run to take place in the original prime timeline continuity before FC changed everything. So ‘Endgame’ would be the last time we saw the original prime timeline until Prodigy.)
I disagree about First Contact being a timeline altering event.

It's made clear that the Enterprise-E's intervention was necessary to change Cochrane's outlook about what warp drive meant to humanity and the opportunity it would offer to create a new, better society. In order for the Cochrane of Star Trek's original TOS timeline to exist the Enterprise-E's involvement was necessary to give him a push. It's arguably a predestination paradox, where in trying to destroy the Federation's existence, the Borg inadvertently helped to create it.

To borrow from Doctor Who, I wouldn't mind a rule that established there can be changes to the timeline, but some things are unalterable. That there are fixed points in time that are unalterable which must happen.
There are those who go by what TPTB say on the matter.
I find this argument really problematic, especially since how selectively applied some people use it. I've seen it in the arguments here, where if people like the changes, it's used as justification for why all fans should accept it. If people think TPTB's views are bad, it's disregarded as irrelevant.

Roddenberry's views as to his intentions for what should or shouldn't be canon are largely disregarded by many here as not mattering. However, Akiva Goldsman can give an interview where he basically tells people that he's changing things because "storytelling beats canon," and that he's explicitly going in a different direction than what's been established. Those changes go beyond a visual retcon where we're taking about the makeup of the Klingons looking different. There are substantive story differences where the nature of the Gorn is different, Khan's backstory is different, etc. And that's fine. I have no problem with that as long as we accept it as being different. I don't think it diminishes it as Star Trek to admit that Discovery and Strange New Worlds are different.

But what I find interesting/irritating are the people that will then try to make you believe that even though Goldsman and other connected to the production will explicitly tell you that they're changing things that the people who point this out are crazy to point out it's different. The amount of arguments that border on gaslighting that amounts to saying: no, no, no, it's not different, it's all still the same and all fits even when it doesn't really fit.

I think leaving it in the hands of whomever is the showrunner of the moment to determine what is and isn't accepted canon of the Prime Timeline is a recipe for for a mess, since it's left in the subjective whims of whatever showrunner to marshal 6 decades of story into a coherent narrative until the next showrunner comes along and changes everything. Maybe you sort of go with the DC idea that we accept that each show exists within its own continuity which may or may not connect to the others, and maybe we accept each show is what it is, and it may connect and it may not.
There are those who insist that because of visual differences and possibly different interpretations of continuity, that certain shows should be excluded from the Prime Timeline.
I think a more reasonable explanation for what it is Prime Canon is whatever the consensus of fans accept it to be. George Lucas spent God knows how much time and multiple edits trying to prove that Han didn't shoot first. That was TPTB's intention. And fans did NOT accept it because it was a stupid change over a small moment that arguably substantively undermined the character's motivations.

Star Wars fans didn't just blindly accept it as true because George Lucas said so, and neither should Star Trek fans accept things if they think they're bad.
 
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It's made clear that the Enterprise-E's intervention was necessary to change Cochrane's outlook about warp drive meant to humanity and the opportunity it would create to create a new, better society. In order for the Cochrane of Star Trek's original TOS timeline to exist the Enterprise-E's involvement was necessary to give him

You can also interpret it as them fixing their own mistakes of telling Cochrane about the future. It wasn't the flight that freaked Cochrane out, it was how important it ended up being to the future of humanity. Without the Enterprise and the Borg, there is no attack on the Montana complex and things likely go off as they originally were supposed to.

I've always wondered what the pure timeline is without the various interventions?
 
The Talaxians spread out their part of the galaxy a long time ago and conquered Earth. The original TCW changed things when they helped the Haakonians survive an catalysm and rise as a power and conquer Talaxia.
 
For clarity’s sake, I need to point out that while the events of FC took place during VOY’s run, I consider the entirety of VOY’s run to take place in the original prime timeline continuity before FC changed everything. So ‘Endgame’ would be the last time we saw the original prime timeline until Prodigy.)
DS9 was also on the air during first contact, it’s mentioned in an episode.

Voyager references the events of First Contact, as Seven of Nine was aware of what transpired in 2063, she mentioned it twice, in Year of Hell and Relativity. She specifically mentions knowing that the Borg were present for Cochrane’s launch which is why she knows about it (possibly because of the signal sent in ENT). And in Relativity she brings up the time travel in that movie as an example of a self-fulfilling paradox. Heck one of the officers sarcastically says Borg are why the Federation exists. So going by your logic, part of Voyager would be in this ‘nuPrime’ you brought up.

Prodigy shows images of the USS Discovery and the NX-01 in season 1. So they happened in Prodigy’s past

The Borg episode of Enterprise is also a Paradox, the signal the assimilated ship sent at the end of the episode is the reason why the Borg are active in the neutral zone by the time TNG starts.
 
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I think leaving it in the hands of whomever is the showrunner of the moment to determine what is and isn't accepted canon of the Prime Timeline is a recipe for for a mess, since it's left in the subjective whims of whatever showrunner to marshal 6 decades of story into a coherent narrative until the next showrunner comes along and changes everything.
That's how it has always been.

The amount of arguments that border on gaslighting that amounts to saying: no, no, no, it's not different, it's all still the same and all fits even when it doesn't really fit.
It's different.

It all fits together as best as the franchise ever has.

Without the Enterprise and the Borg, there is no attack on the Montana complex and things likely go off as they originally were supposed to.
Exactly.

No predestination paradox.
 
I 45disagree about First Contact being a timeline altering event.

It's made clear that the Enterprise-E's intervention was necessary to change Cochrane's outlook about what warp drive meant to humanity and the opportunity it would offer to create a new, better society

The aftermath of FC caused a divergence. Borg drones were left behind. Those Borg drones were never present in the original timeline. The reactivating of those drones in the ENT episode "Regeneration" was a branching point in the timeline.

All of ENT was a branching point in the timeline due to the time meddling of Future Guy and Daniel's attempts to restore the damage.

The entire Time War or the Temporal Cold War made subtle alterations in the timeline as evidenced by the SNW episode Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. The broad strokes are there, but there are subtle differences like the moving of the Eugenics Wars by several years.

The crew of the TOS Enterprise altered time in the TOS episode "Assignment Earth" and TVH. Likewise, Picard's crew made subtle changes (or were present when villains made those changes) in "Time's Arrow" and Picard season 2. Similarly minor alterations were made in "Past Tense" and "Future's End".

Many of these changes went unnoticed because they rewrote history in such a way that our heroes never recalled the alterations or the previous timeline.
 
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