What are your opinions regarding Star Trek that are, shall we say, unorthodox?

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It's not like Kirk would ever harm his son intentionally, and it's not as if he could never interact with him in a safe space free of combat, strange alien weather, and other dangers. There are plenty of places around the known galaxy that don't become the subject of some space disaster or other calamity.

 

[cooleddie74]

The writing definitely doesn't, at least on the surface, put Kirk in the best light. But that's part of why the TWOK script is so good. It makes us challenge the surface impressions and assertions about Kirk. He's struggling with getting older and feeling useless behind a desk on Earth, we're struggling with realizing one of the pop culture heroes of the late 20th century has such personal struggles over fatherhood and being in a committed relationship with one partner. He's not a perfect man and his relationships are very flawed, even if on the surface he's a velour-clad action man and defender of righteousness and democracy with the chiseled good looks of a poster boy.

Kirk grows, and I'd like to think the audience gains a greater appreciation for Kirk's dilemma and his strength as a human being when he begins to reconcile with David and his mother.

 

[BillJ]

Carol wanted David in her world, and it ended up costing him his life. That is some heavy irony.

 

[BillJ]

Depends on how good those 2.5 seasons might have been. Quality over quantity, and all that.

I think Enterprise went out on a generally positive note with the fourth season. I'm fine with it ending where it ended.

 

[cooleddie74]

Which is good writing. Carol wanted to protect her son at all costs, and in the end his chosen life of science and discovery landed him the path of tragedy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There's irony* in that the fate David met, on a planet far out in space, at the hands of enemies of the Federation, during an interstellar conflict, is most probably the sort of thing that Carol was trying to protect David from, by shielding him from Kirk's influence.

* - Of course there's irony, tragic irony even. David's own life story is mythic/epic in scale.

Holy crap, totally ninja'd here!

 

[BillJ]

There's irony* in that the fate David met, on a planet far out in space, at the hands of enemies of the Federation, during an interstellar conflict, is most probably the sort of thing that Carol was trying to protect David from, by shielding him from Kirk's influence.

* - Of course there's irony, tragic irony even. David's own life story is mythic/epic in scale.

Holy crap, totally ninja'd here!

You stated it better.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You stated it better.

Not sure about that, in either instance (yours and @cooleddie74's)!

 

[FredH]

Just my personal opinion…

The child is mine. The mother asking me to “stay away” would mean nothing to me (other than we have to figure out how to co-parent).

What was it Data said?

You ask that I volunteer to give her up. I cannot. It would violate every lesson I have learned about human parenting. I have brought a new life into this world, and it is my duty, not Starfleet's, to guide her through these first difficult steps to maturity, to support her as she learns, to prepare her to be a contributing member of society. No one can relieve me from that obligation. And I cannot ignore it. I am her father.

That’s a father right there.

Starfleet ain’t the mother.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Man, that is a low blow! You should think about what you've done!

God's honest truth, that implication only occured to me after I hit send.

 

[1001001]

Starfleet ain’t the mother.

That’s not the important part.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Starfleet ain’t the mother.

Starfleet is Mother
Starfleet is Father.

 

[BillJ]

That’s not the important part.

Honestly, it really is important. It is two entirely different dynamics.

 

[1001001]

Honestly, it really is important. It is two entirely different dynamics.

I don’t agree at all.

Starfleet, mother, alien, whatever.

I am responsible. No one can relieve me of it, and I can’t ignore it.

 

[CoveTom]

Carol told Jim to let her raise their son by herself, in an environment where he wouldn't be routinely endangered aboard an exploratory spacecraft in the far reaches of the galaxy. Kirk agreed, and likely understood her points even if he didn't completely agree with them. She was exercising her maternal rights, was a civilian in a scientific field, made what in hindsight were emotionally trying but ultimately reasonable demands and Kirk chose not to fight her for custody.

We can see not getting to see David grow up hurts him (Shatner's emoting conveys that Kirk feels so empty inside that David wasn't a part of his life), but that was ultimately up to Carol - and she wanted him to stay away.

Sucks, but at the end of the day she made the right decision for both herself and David.

You keep framing this as though Carol, as the mother, gets to make all the decisions. That it's her right to do so. And that Kirk, as the father, just has to go along with what the mother wants. That is not the way it works. A father is just as much a parent as a mother. The father has just as much right to have a say as the mother does.

 

[BillJ]

You keep framing this as though Carol, as the mother, gets to make all the decisions.

Not all of them. She does have the right to make a request that Kirk granted. I mean, let's be honest here, she was going to be raising David on her own regardless of whether she made the request or not. Kirk would've come home maybe once a year to visit.

 

[cooleddie74]

Many things in Star Trek don't feel right on the surface, but it doesn't mean within the context of the story they aren't the right things do do. Carol was going to bear the greatest burden with a career-oriented partner rising through the ranks of Starfleet and poised to get his own starship, she's the one who got to make the most important decisions.

We don't have to agree with it, but in-story they were the right ones, and Kirk honored her wishes.

 

[Warp Core Breach]

Dude was out on at least one 5-year mission in which they never returned home unless it was time travel mumbo jumbo. Possibly two five year missions if you think that happened after TMP. Plus whatever he was doing before his time on the Enterprise. He wouldn't have been around anyway.

 

[BillJ]

Dude was out on at least one 5-year mission in which they never returned home unless it was time travel mumbo jumbo. Possibly two five year missions if you think that happened after TMP. Plus whatever he was doing before his time on the Enterprise. He wouldn't have been around anyway.

I think that is where he made the practical decision to do what Carol Marcus asked of him.

 

[cooleddie74]

Kirk knew he couldn't be there because of his career and responsibilities, even if early on he might have tried his best. He respected the mother's wishes after she realized an absent father would be better than having a perpetually distracted and possibly irresponsible one. That's the end of the story, really.