Western genre feature film resurgence 2010-2015

[J.T.B.]

Thanks for that post, stj. It's nice to be reminded that debating you is a senseless and masochistic exercise. You can presume whatever you'd like about me, but I am not going to engage with you any longer.

Ain't that the truth. He has a lot to say about Westerns as a genre, but doesn't seem to have seen a lot of the actual movies.

 

[stj]

^^^Still saw enough of them to know you frequently misreport, distort and generally screw up simple descriptions.

But don't be bashful, limiting yourself to a random drive-by potshot. Be brave, explain to us how Justified and Hatfields & McCoys and Django Unchained are Westerns. If it makes you bolder, I won't respond to your post either.

 

[J.T.B.]

^^^Still saw enough of them to know you frequently misreport, distort and generally screw up simple descriptions.

And this from the guy who posted such off-base stuff as:

• Henry Fonda was the hero in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
• There are rarely Union Civil War veterans as heroes in Westerns
• Major Dundee wasn't the hero in Major Dundee
• Wild Bill Hickock's wartime service was never dealt with in a move
• Vera Cruz was racist because the Gary Cooper character was a former Confederate
• Duel in the Sun was racist in its treatment of the Pearl character
  

I think informed readers can make up their minds about who knows what they are talking about.

But don't be bashful, limiting yourself to a random drive-by potshot. Be brave, explain to us how Justified and Hatfields & McCoys and Django Unchained are Westerns. If it makes you bolder, I won't respond to your post either.

No thanks.

 

[flandry84]

To reply to an earlier point-that the corporate thugs in Outland have no precedent in the traditional western.
Nonesense.
What were the Pinkerton men in The Long riders?
Frank Morgan(Henry Fonda)in Once upon a time in the west.
The railroads hired killers in Mc Cabe & Mrs.Miller.
And to further stretch the genre,the corporate killers in Matewan.

 

[stj]

To reply to an earlier point-that the corporate thugs in Outland have no precedent in the traditional western.
Nonesense.
What were the Pinkerton men in The Long riders?
Frank Morgan(Henry Fonda)in Once upon a time in the west.
The railroads hired killers in Mc Cabe & Mrs.Miller.
And to further stretch the genre,the corporate killers in Matewan.

The corporation's use of drugs to quell the workers is wholly unlike the traditional Western. But it is interesting to note that McCabe & Mrs. Miller is very much not a traditional Western, self-refuting the argument. And even this poster has to admit that Matewan is a stretch. If you try to argue that an opinion is nonsense, you really have to do better than this. It is far better not to go to J.T.B.'s school of misrepresentation and irrelevance.

It's not a hard question: In what "useful" sense are Justified and Hatfields & McCoys and Django Unchained Westerns?

 

[J.T.B.]

It is far better not to go to J.T.B.'s school of misrepresentation and irrelevance.

Right, right, because I've called out your glaring inaccuracies and can actually back it up. As opposed to generalized declamations and, in the absence of something substantive, personal baiting as shown above. Which indicates to me that you don't really care so much about watching and discussing Westerns as scoring points in furtherance of some personal agenda. Have fun.

 

[stj]

You've never successfully backed up anything you've argued against me. Also you have misrepresented what I've said, except for my assertion that Wild Bill Hickock is not portrayed as a Union veteran. But if you think coming up with movie that does treat his service compares to its absence in so many movies were Hickock has a part is more than a quibble? Your humiliation at being refuted has led you into error.

But the racial subtext in the traditional Western, the issue that really has you so angry you can't think straight, is not the topic in this thread. You only came in to pursue a cheap revenge at being whipped on that topic. But, put aside your wounded vanity, take a genuine revenge by high-mindedly answering the question that somehow provoked such mindless but mean-spirited posts: In what useful sense are Justified, and Hatfields & McCoys, and Django Unchained Westerns? Aside from being hicks flicks, that is?

(By the way, the topic of race in traditional Westerns is not necessarily resolved in my favor, as a more discerning poster might be able to make valid arguments, unlike you.)

 

[flandry84]

Wtth respect STJ(or at least more than you have shown anyone)I still don't understand your argument.
Just what are the criteria you accept in defining a western?
Locale,time or theme?
Locale(by strict definitions)would exclude movies like Coogan's bluff,Last of the mohicans,Hell even The Magnificent 7 which doesn't even take place in America.Is Texas south or west?
Time-no Lonely are the brave,HI-LO country,Brokeback mountain.
Theme-well define that one first.Is Justified out because it is a crime driven show?Half the western movies I have seen feature Sheriffs ,outlaws and much more.

 

[J.T.B.]

You've never successfully backed up anything you've argued against me. Also you have misrepresented what I've said, except for my assertion that Wild Bill Hickock is not portrayed as a Union veteran. But if you think coming up with movie that does treat his service compares to its absence in so many movies were Hickock has a part is more than a quibble? Your humiliation at being refuted has led you into error.

That's moving the goal post, because the statement I was responding to was not about proportion, but that Hickock being a Union veteran was "never" part of a film about him. I thought someone well versed in the history of Westerns might be passing familiar with The Plainsman, which was so formative for the Hickock/Calamity Jane myth, and remember Gary Cooper waiting for a riverboat in his soldier blue.

As for the rest of it, it's still there for all to see. Generalized and non-specific. Notably, the "classic western" on which so much of the argument depends, is never defined:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=120592

But instead of telling everyone how inaccurate and inept I am, go ahead and show them. Expand on your comments about Henry Fonda in She Wore A Yellow Ribbon (a film in which he does not appear). Or the racism in Vera Cruz. Or Duel in the Sun. Quote a line, cite a scene.

But the racial subtext in the traditional Western, the issue that really has you so angry you can't think straight, is not the topic in this thread. You only came in to pursue a cheap revenge at being whipped on that topic.

No, I came in to agree with Harvey, that arguing with you is pointless. Which is obviously correct unless someone enjoys being personally badgered. And I think it's obvious from the language displayed here who is angry.

I don't disagree with all the racial subtext claims, just the simplistic and over-broad assertion that that was the factor that ended Westerns' mainstream popularity. And some claims about specific movies which are wrong.

But, put aside your wounded vanity, take a genuine revenge by high-mindedly answering the question that somehow provoked such mindless but mean-spirited posts: In what useful sense are Justified, and Hatfields & McCoys, and Django Unchained Westerns? Aside from being hicks flicks, that is?

Your assumption of the position I would take is wrong.

(By the way, the topic of race in traditional Westerns is not necessarily resolved in my favor, as a more discerning poster might be able to make valid arguments, unlike you.)

You were saying something about "mean-spirited"?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Is Texas south or west?

Both

 

[Christopher]

And while THE FLINTSTONES was clearly a HONEYMOONERS rip-off, wasn't THE JETSONS a FLINTSTONES one?

Not really -- there are some clear similarities, but it's not a direct imitation, more a parallel creation. This essay says The Jetsons was inspired more by the visions of optimistic futurism that were in vogue at the time, "a projection of the model American family into the future." Which is rather different from the more dysfunctional Kramden and Flintstone families. And George Jetson himself was based on his voice artist, George O'Hanlon, and his trademark character Joe McDoakes, a hard-luck everyman who'd appeared in a series of comedy film shorts in the '40s and '50s.

 

[stj]

I didn't want to waste much time on your views a second time. But fortunately, following the link didn't take much time to find when you started misrepresenting my views as well as simple facts about the movies. I lost any respect for your ability to interpret posts or movies here:

Turning a Quantrill's raider into a Western Robin Hood is a political statement in itself. The insistence that the South was all about small government or such drivel is the same kind of thing. Demanding that people have to forthrightly state they are racist seems so excessive as to border on the disingenuous.

Even so, that's a long way from supporting the earlier contentions that Westerns were doomed by their outmoded racial views.

The subtext of Jesse James is there. Nobody from New York or Massachusetts or even Ohio gets to be the Western Robin Hood and that's no accident.

A "Western Robin Hood" story accounts for only a small percentage of Western movies. The James gang has just as often been depicted as genuine "bad guys," often very charismatic, but clearly on the wrong side. Far more influential for Western movies were the examples of lawmen like Wyatt Earp and Pat Garrett, who promoted their stories tirelessly in their lifetimes, even in Hollywood in Earp's case. Usually the stories, even if based on real characters, were so fictionalized the the average moviegoer would have little or no idea of the politics originally involved.

Here are the top 15 most commercially successful Westerns according to George Lucas's Blockbusting, Alex B. Block, ed.

1. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)
2. Duel in the Sun (1947)
3. How the West Was Won (1963)
4. Dances with Wolves (1990)
5. Shane (1953)
6. The Outlaw (1943)
7. Unforgiven (1992)
8. Maverick (1994)
9. The Alamo (1960)
10. Jesse James (1939)
11. True Grit (1969)
12. The Covered Wagon (1923)
13. Red River (1948)
14. Little Big Man (1970)
15. Vera Cruz (1954)

I can find little "racist" content in that list. Numbers 3 and 12 have stereotypical Indian fighting, but even the silent Covered Wagon has scenes showing the Indians are fighting for their way of life. Numbers 4 and 14 are emphatically pro-Native American, and 7 and 8 have strongly positive black and Native American characters, respectively. The rest, race plays little or no part. As for Robin Hood stories, the 1939 Jesse James is indeed one example, but it is fictionalized and leaves James brothers' Civil War origins out completely. In the movie they are pushed into crime by corrupt land-grabbers.

The reason that TV Westerns outlasted movie Westerns is simple: It was the same thing continued elsewhere. The B-picture Western, which could be produced on an industrial scale by Hollywood, shifted to television just as viewers switched from going to the pictures and seeing serials, newsreels, B- and A-features to getting most of their entertainment at home and only going to the movies for big features. The well-established system for mass-producing Westerns was a natural fit for TV and played a big part in shifting the center of the television industry from New York to California. There were still feature film Westerns made in Hollywood, but the genre was not nearly as dominant as on TV. And the reason they died out on TV was also simple: There were too many and people tired of them, and the new field of demographic research showed that younger viewers preferred sitcoms and detective shows.

--Justin

The bold face is added. I skipped over the misrepresentation of my contentions about race. Nor did I remark about how your supposed explanation is not even an explanation. It took decades and decades for soap operas and detective shows to more or less vanish from the TV network schedules. Why did it take so much longer for there to be too much of those shows? They suffered from overkill too. (Yes, I know that detective shows are overexposed still.)


However, the notion that there was little or no concern with race, when Duel in the Sun is about, well, I quote from imdb: "Beautiful half-breed Pearl Chavez becomes the ward of her dead father's first love and finds herself torn between her sons, one good and the other bad." Race plays little or no part?

But in your version, this becomes:

^^^Still saw enough of them to know you frequently misreport, distort and generally screw up simple descriptions.

And this from the guy who posted such off-base stuff as:

• Henry Fonda was the hero in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
• There are rarely Union Civil War veterans as heroes in Westerns
• Major Dundee wasn't the hero in Major Dundee
• Wild Bill Hickock's wartime service was never dealt with in a move
• Vera Cruz was racist because the Gary Cooper character was a former Confederate
• Duel in the Sun was racist in its treatment of the Pearl character

I think informed readers can make up their minds about who knows what they are talking about.

But don't be bashful, limiting yourself to a random drive-by potshot. Be brave, explain to us how Justified and Hatfields & McCoys and Django Unchained are Westerns. If it makes you bolder, I won't respond to your post either.

No thanks.

You just make shit up.

 

[J.T.B.]

However, the notion that there was little or no concern with race, when Duel in the Sun is about, well, I quote from imdb: "Beautiful half-breed Pearl Chavez becomes the ward of her dead father's first love and finds herself torn between her sons, one good and the other bad." Race plays little or no part?

If you had watched the movie, you would know that its editorial position is clear: The bias against Pearl as a suitable wife is wrong, shown most notably through the morally-centered (and Southern!) Lillian Gish character.

I won't hold my breath for your exegesis on the Henry Fonda character in She Wore A Yellow Ribbon.

 

[Taylirious]

I watch The Rifleman on Me TV and think this could work now. A Man, His Son and His Gun?

Maybe?

 

[scifib5st]

About a month ago, the Brian and Jill show, Pod cast, found on the internet or Sticher the brian and jill show.com. They interviewed Kurt Russell, they talked about Tomstone. It was a great interview, Kurt is now filming a move about a mining in Alaska.

 

[scifib5st]

Ok, sorry for posting agian.... but I'm watching a program called the "Virgnan" which I rember from you childhood, 1963 called "Man of Violenc" With Tramps and gest stars DeForest Kelly and Leonard Nimoy,,,, De plays a Dr. and Leonard is an indaian scout...
it's on ISNP on Direct TV Chan. 364...

 

[Lt. Cheka Wey]

Are ''manchurian westerns'' like The Good, the Bad and the Weird part of this western resurgence?

 

[jefferiestubes8]

"Bone Tomahawk" horror/western (2014)

They interviewed Kurt Russell, they talked about Tomstone. It was a great interview, Kurt is now filming a move about a mining in Alaska.

thanks.

Deadline reports Olyphant has signed on to star alongside Kurt Russell, Peter Sarsgaard, Richard Jenkins, and Jennifer Carpenter in the directorial debut of the feature's screenwriter S. Craig Zahler. A horror thriller set in the Wild West, Bone Tomahawk centers on four men—presumably Olyphant, Russell, Sarsgaard, and Jenkins—who set out into treacherous terrain to rescue settlers captured by a gang of cannibalistic cave-dwellers that live outside the borders of established civilization.

The film is slated to shoot next spring in New Mexico, though it's unclear on where the movie will be set. I can't help but wonder if Zahler's inspiration from the film came from the notorious Colorado Cannibal, Alfred Packer, who was said to have murdered and eaten his traveling companions during the winter of 1873-1874.

via

moviepilot.com give us the headline:
'Stagecoach meets The Hills Have Eyes in this gruesome horror western'
geez...

 

[flandry84]

Flicking through imdb's trailer section I just sqw Wesley Snipes' latest effort "Gallowalkers".Blade vs. Zombies in the old west...yeah....'nuff said.

These horror/science fiction westerns are doing great aren't they?Ask Daniel Craig

For fuck sake(apologies)but a blind man could see that these hybrid westerns are going nowhere(the bargain bin maybe).And look at the sucess that a "traditional western" like True grit has been.
Where are the famed studio execs heads at?

 

[jefferiestubes8]

I noticed Wyatt Earp's Revenge is now on Netflix, and Amazon Instant. I put it in the Queue. I'd rather watch a lower budget Western than a contemporary-set modern day Western. Has anyone seen it?

In a couple months the Christian Slater Dawn Rider also comes out on DVD only. I'll check it out too.