So what is the standard? Who draws that line?
Westboro Baptist Gets A Surprise
- Thread starter Peacemaker
- Start date
So what is the standard? Who draws that line?
No, they don't. As Peacemaker points out, there have always been time, place, and manner restrictions on free speech. Try and have a protest on the field in the middle of a sporting event, or block traffic, or constantly shout over someone giving a speech in an auditorium and see what happens. The same principle applies here.
The WBC, and to a lesser extent the well-intentioned and effective counter-protests their actions inspire (who I'm not criticizing; there was really no alternative until this law), are disruptive to the funeral service of the families, and as such a time and distance restriction is perfectly reasonable. They're still able to protest, just not in a way that directly disrupts the service itself.
Exactly. There can be restrictions placed on the time and locations of protest activities almost anywhere. This is simply one example of such a restriction specifically documented in law.
Nothing in this law prohibits WBC from holding or expressing their views, or from holding idiotic protests if they so please. Their freedom to make such speech is not restricted. Only the time and place has been regulated in order to preserve the rights of others.
Sounds like a good compromise to me.
Let me put it another way.
Everyone understands the oft-quoted exemption to free speech..."you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater." Why? Saying that word doesn't physically harm anyone.
Clearly the standard for restricting free speech is something other than physical harm.
Actually, saying "fire" in a crowded theater was killing large number of people in stampedes. Theaters used to be tinderboxes where the stage was lit by a Drummond light (similar to a Coleman lantern, a pretty close reproduction being a propane torch heating egg shells) lit by hydrogen gas generated on site and delivered through make-shift plumbing. Some of the crowd-trampling disasters gave us outward opening exit doors, which we still use today.
I missed this the first time. Besides being a slippery slope fallacy, bringing up the specter of Nazism over a slight restriction on the time and place of WBC protests is offensive. That's twice in as many days that someone has ridiculously inserted pastor Niemöller's quote into a situation where it didn't belong, and the other one at least had the benefit of being mostly a stupid joke.
The constitutional basis for this already exists, this just added some specificity. And it really is something that basically just affects the WBC and is extremely limited. Protesting funerals is extremely rare and pretty much their thing exclusively at the moment, and they can still do it outside the restricted time and place.
Since it was passed in response to a ruling at the Constitutional level, I wonder if this law will survive. Certainly I don't see any problem with restrictions that prevent protesters from interfering with a funeral (although it should apply to all funerals, not just military ones).
But a law is nowhere near as impressive or heartening as seeing thousands of decent people turn out to keep these loud, obnoxious vacuous trolls at bay.
But a law is nowhere near as impressive or heartening as seeing thousands of decent people turn out to keep these loud, obnoxious vacuous trolls at bay.
Exactly, abuse isn't exclusively defined as physical. Verbal and emotional abuse often get left unchecked. I find it a bit of a stretch that this new policy is somehow opening the door to a Nazi regime.
A damn fine piece of legislation. I am, for personal reasons, very pleased to see this.
Exactly. While I sure as heck don't agree with the WBC's motives and tactics, they have the right to protest. I also think it's awesome when a protective group forms between the funeral and the WBC, it proves to me that people do care.
Close enough. The response of a reasonable person who hears "fire" in a crowded theater is to panic and run. Therefore, even though no physical harm is done by the person who yells fire, he/she is still culpable.
Now, what is the response of a reasonable person to a person yelling "God hates fags" at a funeral for a child?
I'm about as liberal as they come. I don't care for guns, and think everyone deserves the right to free speech, but when it comes to the entire WBC, I really do wish someone would just take them all out.
As many nutty wackjobs as there are out there, I can't imagine why one of them hasn't already targeted that family/cult. Hell, they probably wouldn't even get charged - they'd get a medal.
And there's your standard.
A reasonable person is enraged by the WBC message when presented at a solemn event like a funeral. The message, when presented at that time and place, is solely meant to piss people off.
That's why it should be regulated by the law and this ruling is not some sort of "slippery slope."
I swear I truly believe that I will turn the news on one day and see exactly that. I think it is only a matter of time before crazy meets crazy in another Waco type situation.
If it does happen, yeah, it'll be crazy meets crazy. I see it happening like the Klan vs. Nazi shootout in Greensboro, NC many years ago.
A lot of activity since my post last night. The Mich law establishes this as a "Rights in Conflict" situation rather than simply restricting free speech rights unilateraly. This makes the law more likely to pass constitutional muster. What rights of individual A trump which rights of individual B is something for courts to determine, but in a "rights in conflict" situation they're able to consider other factors like overall public good.
Do the WBC folks have other venues for their speech. Of course they do, but you only bury your daughter once. (Well hopefully anyway.)
Do the WBC folks have other venues for their speech. Of course they do, but you only bury your daughter once. (Well hopefully anyway.)
It's always going to be a matter of interpretation for law enforcement and the courts. People who think free speech means you can say anything you want whenever/wherever you want are simply wrong.
Try yelling "Fucking police suck donkey dicks" on the street corner in front of your local police station and see how far your free speech rights extend.
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