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Wertham lied

That "snark" as you put it, or entrenched cynicism as I see it, is the reason superheroes have turned drab and dull (Raimi notwithstanding - he still believed in the source material). No one's willing to believe in earnestness anymore. Where Wertham failed this attitude is succeeding.
For that reason I'll make the following prediction: Man of Steel will bomb. Superman is a creature of light and fancy. Any attempt to weigh him down is doomed to failure.
I mean, come on: Hansel & Gretel, Witch Hunters?? Really?
 
What's wrong with Hansel & Gretel? Sure, the film probably sucks, but at least Hollywood is creating some new IPs rather than regurgitating the same crap over and over again like the upcoming Oz film.
 
A beaker full of death said:
That "snark" as you put it, or entrenched cynicism as I see it, is the reason superheroes have turned drab and dull (Raimi notwithstanding - he still believed in the source material). No one's willing to believe in earnestness anymore. Where Wertham failed this attitude is succeeding.
For that reason I'll make the following prediction: Man of Steel will bomb. Superman is a creature of light and fancy. Any attempt to weigh him down is doomed to failure.
I mean, come on: Hansel & Gretel, Witch Hunters?? Really?
Click to expand...

What you call "entrenched cynicism" I call "depth." Or at least attempts at achieving it. Nobody wants to see a goody two-shoes Superman in 2013. We expect a bit more complexity these days.

Everything doesn't have to be grim and gritty, but some effort at realism (as in portraying characters as if they were real people) is a good thing.
 
Kelthaz said:
What's wrong with Hansel & Gretel? Sure, the film probably sucks, but at least Hollywood is creating some new IPs rather than regurgitating the same crap over and over again like the upcoming Oz film.
Click to expand...
:cardie: Not sure if serious...


A beaker full of death said:
That "snark" as you put it, or entrenched cynicism as I see it, is the reason superheroes have turned drab and dull (Raimi notwithstanding - he still believed in the source material). No one's willing to believe in earnestness anymore. Where Wertham failed this attitude is succeeding.
For that reason I'll make the following prediction: Man of Steel will bomb. Superman is a creature of light and fancy. Any attempt to weigh him down is doomed to failure.
I mean, come on: Hansel & Gretel, Witch Hunters?? Really?
Click to expand...
Well, there's a thorough and complete non-response to the point I was making in response to your OP... :rolleyes:
 
Kelthaz said:
What's wrong with Hansel & Gretel? Sure, the film probably sucks, but at least Hollywood is creating some new IPs rather than regurgitating the same crap over and over again like the upcoming Oz film.
Click to expand...

Except of course the idea of Hansel/Gretel as witchhunters isn't original. It's been done before in fiction.
 
A beaker full of death said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/books/flaws-found-in-fredric-werthams-comic-book-studies.html

The irony is that we've regressed societally, to the point where people really are interpreting every line in the seediest possible light. e.g., http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=32&Itemid=50
Click to expand...

What other way is there to interpret that comic panel?

The men are told anyone they touched has passed on a deadly pathogen. Flash, Atom and Green Lantern all respond with worry for female companions. Who's the first person Batman thinks of? Robin? Sorry, it sort of hard to NOT see the subtext there, it's pretty spelled out that billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne doesn't think of one of the many women he courts but of his teenage male ward.
 
Robert Maxwell said:
Everything doesn't have to be grim and gritty.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't, and that's exactly the point. Everything HAS become grim and gritty, and anything that isn't is automatically (and incorrectly) written off as "campy".

And that's just sad.
 
I think his point is that attempts at realism have been interpreted as grim and gritty.
 
The thing with psychoanalysts is... most of them have an issue themselves, and generalize it and project it on the entire humankind.

Wertham isn't any different from those who say video games make people violent, or watching Seinfeld makes you gay. You can cite studies for any shit.
 
RandyS said:
Robert Maxwell said:
Everything doesn't have to be grim and gritty.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't, and that's exactly the point. Everything HAS become grim and gritty, and anything that isn't is automatically (and incorrectly) written off as "campy".

And that's just sad.
Click to expand...

Well, that's a nice false dichotomy you've got there, but I'm having none of it.

Alidar Jarok said:
I think his point is that attempts at realism have been interpreted as grim and gritty.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is part of it. I get the impression guys like beaker really do see anything with shades of moral ambiguity or complex characterization as "cynical" and stereotypically "grim and gritty," when that's not the case. There's nothing cynical about acknowledging that real people are flawed and make mistakes.
 
I'll be interested to see how Man Of Steel does. I do think that the current "dark" treatment of much skiffy material which has it's basis in less jaded times has become tedious, but it's also true that wandering very far afield from that stance these days is often the kiss of death for any production that requires a huge audience in order to generate a profit.

I like a lot of that so-called "realism" (which is actually just as escapist as the old stuff, rendered in a different palette) but it has, for the moment, crowded every alternative out of popular movie fantasy as effectively as McDonalds and other fast food have come to dominate the big food service industry. The exception? Animated movies putatively targeted at children.

Myself, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Oz movie but I fully expect it to be a box office bomb. It's visually bright, colorful and clearly a whimsical take on the material - too pretty and too happy by half to amuse the young adults who must be persuaded to consume it en masse. Burton would have found his way to whatever sickliness could be found in the story and visual design and the thing might have had a shot. Raimi, peculiarly enough, is too much in love with the native tone of his source material for this to succeed.
 
A beaker full of death said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/books/flaws-found-in-fredric-werthams-comic-book-studies.html

The irony is that we've regressed societally, to the point where people really are interpreting every line in the seediest possible light. e.g., http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=32&Itemid=50
Click to expand...
The last time I was at that site it was clear to anyone with eyes that it was a humor site and not a serious examination of old comics. Taking things out of context is the point of the site, it started by pointing that Superman is a dick using old comic covers where he is constantly killing Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen. They aren't saying that he is a murderer.

Also we're never going back to the simple days of comics where good is good and bad is bad. The audience needs something a little more complex and engaging.
 
The idea of "societal regression" is a non-starter, sorry. Just because something about the world makes someone unhappy doesn't make it anyone's problem but theirs.
 
All agreed, Superdickery firmly has its tongue planted in its cheek, but the humor in that old Batman panel predates the site (same with the Joker/Boner panels from Batman #66.) Needless to say, though, the humor in that panel is pretty evident because it's seriously a major WTF moment in its context. The other heroes mention women they're romantically involved with (romance having a high level of kissing and physical interaction) and along with that contextual setup Batman thinks of... Robin!?!

It's just odd.

About the... "topic." Seduction of the Innocent being full of crap I'm sure a lot of people have known for a very long time, comics having been growing out of the CCA for a couple of decades now. And, yeah, it gave us a LOT of crap in the Silver Age but because of that it's now a lot of fun looking back at this stuff.

I think comics are better off now with more dynamic and interesting characters that are living in shades of gray rather than strictly being "good."
 
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