That was actually exactly what I was referring to... young Guinan very much did have this ability... it even had a name. PIC S2 even gave it name... Af-Kelt. It was a minor plot point in S2 that... Guinan was literally sick due to the timeline changes and she was helped Picard because she could feel the disruption... like... quite literally a plot point in the show.
Were there other Enterprises between the NX-01 and the NCC-1701?
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That was actually exactly what I was referring to... young Guinan very much did have this ability... it even had a name. PIC S2 even gave it name... Af-Kelt. It was a minor plot point in S2 that... Guinan was literally sick due to the timeline changes and she was helped Picard because she could feel the disruption... like... quite literally a plot point in the show.
Funny, I don't remember any of that. Perhaps that's because the season sucked so bad?
Maybe it sucked because you didn't pay attention to what was happening? I don't know? I thought it was entertaining.
Oh, I was paying attention. I just must have blocked that scene out. Too bad that when Picard induced that af-kelt, she didn't immediately say "Oh, it's you! That dude from the future I met with Samuel Clemens!"
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In "Yesterday's Enterprise" it seems to me Guinan only notices the timeline is changed when the ship comes through and she sees undead Tasha. To me that reads like even though the timeline changed 22 years ago, she spent that 22 years thinking nothing was wrong and then when the ship came through BAM she suddenly remembered it. Otherwise I'd think she'd spend that 22 years going on about how stuff doesn't make sense. So in Picard Season 2 it's not past Guinan who should think something is wrong but present day Guinan should wake up in 2399 or whenever and find it all messed up (and yet really impressed because MAN the Confederacy really did a number on the galaxy!)
But also, now that I think about it, I think "Engines of Destiny" has the opposite idea, so what do I know.
But also, now that I think about it, I think "Engines of Destiny" has the opposite idea, so what do I know.
Oh, I was paying attention. I just must have blocked that scene out. Too bad that when Picard induced that af-kelt, she didn't immediately say "Oh, it's you! That dude from the future I met with Samuel Clemens!"
That Guinan never met Picard... Confederation Picard never travelled back to the 1800's.
If given a bit more time to process everything, she might have eventually had some of gut feeling of familiarity with Picard, sensing some of the other timeline, but there were more pressing matters at hand.
On end, "timey wimey".
On another though, it seems to depend on what happened to change the timeline. In the case of "Yesterday's Enterprise", it was Enterprise-C coming through the rift that changed things... so Guinan at the point of the timeline change ("present" Guinan) felt the problem.
In the case of Picard S2, the point of the timeline change wasn't in 2399, it was in 2025. It is also worth noting an important thing here though that 2025 Guinan wasn't having issues until Picard forced the issue. Going with the apparent logic of how it seems to work, if left alone, young Guinan should have had at least some kind of issue when Renee Picard would have been killed, the true point of the timeline divergence.
Also like... there's a pretty good chance 2399 (2400?) Confederation Guinan is either dead, or not daring to reveal who she is. They tend to not like aliens, I couldn't even imagine how the Confederation would respond to an alien who has infiltrated and spied on Earth for a few centuries...
On the topic of Guinan and S2, I do appreciate that they took a moment to at least lightly address the standoff in "Q Who". Picard S2 really did alot of kind of neat things and I think it gets dumped on way too much. They probably should have truncated the 2025 stuff down and not spend the entire season there... but otherwise, I found it to be generally pretty good. Better than most anything else that has been produced in new Trek.
Yes, we've been discussing that. Specifically, how it doesn't make sense.
Exactly. Confed Picard didn't travel back, but Prime Picard did. As of 2024, both are possible futures.
But the crew came from the 24th century, so this is the 2nd playthrough, so the Federation timeline is no longer a possible future.
But it’s still the same past.
Maybe it's back to the future rules, and until the future is possible it can't be remembered.
But that's the point: Both futures ARE possible.
The change to the timeline came with the removal of Renée Picard. As of the arrival in 2025, this had not yet occurred. Therefore, logically speaking, in PIC Season 2 both futures were possible.
It's like the Abramsverse. In that case, the timeline divergence came in 2233 (with the destruction of the Kelvin). Before that, both the Prime and Kelvin timelines were possible. Individuals from either timeline could travel back to before 2233 and even meet each other. For example, a Kelvinverse character could travel back to 19th-century San Francisco and find Data's head.
As for Guinan not remembering Picard: Most likely she DID remember him, she simply chose not to reveal herself to him. In any case, once the timeline was corrected, she did in fact remember him, so the issue is largely moot.
That was never going to be possible. The only reason PIC spent all of season 2 in 2025 is because of covid. The pandemic severely limited what they could do and where they could film, and required that "pods" of actors spent all of their time together.
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Broad strokes.
But that's the point: Both futures ARE possible.
The change to the timeline came with the removal of Renée Picard. As of the arrival in 2025, this had not yet occurred. Therefore, logically speaking, in PIC Season 2 both futures were possible.
It's like the Abramsverse. In that case, the timeline divergence came in 2233 (with the destruction of the Kelvin). Before that, both the Prime and Kelvin timelines were possible. Individuals from either timeline could travel back to before 2233 and even meet each other. For example, a Kelvinverse character could travel back to 19th-century San Francisco and find Data's head.
As for Guinan not remembering Picard: Most likely she DID remember him, she simply chose not to reveal herself to him. In any case, once the timeline was corrected, she did in fact remember him, so the issue is largely moot.
That was never going to be possible. The only reason PIC spent all of season 2 in 2025 is because of covid. The pandemic severely limited what they could do and where they could film, and required that "pods" of actors spent all of their time together.
I have pondered on this for so very long.
When Pine-Kirk finally has to go find some whales, if he gets them from the 80s and not any other time in history, would he run into Prime Kirk? If they got onto the same ship, what future would they go to? If Pine Kirk is watching the Bird of Prey enter time warp, which future does the Bird of Prey end up in?
It's possible.
Prime.
The BOP came from the Prime timeline, so that's where it will return. Even if the Kelvin crew piled onto it as well.
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It's doubtful that Pine Kirk would even be going back in time. Because I'm almost certain that Prime Spock would have mentioned this event, and that they would have come up with a contingency plan for when the Whale Probe eventually entered the system.
Its only established that the tradition started in 2245, not that its every Enterprise, if we are including pre-Federation Enterprises. As there is no evidence that a piece of the XCV-330 was ever in the NX-01; it was never mentioned before.
And it doesn’t mean that the USS Essex wasn’t very briefly an Enterprise, since it was lost 78 years before the tradition was established.
Maybe it is the loss of the Essex that spurred the creation the tradition, out of superstition, to wish the next ship good fortune.
Star Trek time travel is all over the place, but going by what seems to happen in Picard Season 2, I don't think this is the case and I don't think Kelvin Kirk would run into Prime Kirk...
We've seen both reality just get overwritten with a timeline change, AND a new universe created from the timeline change.
It's the whole parallel universe aspect that throws a wrench in. If 1986 is the same 1986 for both timelines, then yes if similar events happened in both futures, they should run into each other. Now... the thing is... why would they automatically return to their timeline?
In PIC S2, the Confederation future seems to overwrite the normal future. Young Guinan doesn't know Picard, despite having met him in the 1800's... because she didn't. Confederation Picard never time travelled to the 1800's to meet Guinan. The timeline essentially changed both ways, since a "future" event never happened, it could not have an effect on the "past". When the timeline is fixed, the entire timeline is fixed, including the past.
DSC establishes that the Kelvin timeline very much is a parallel universe. In that case, both 1986's are NOT the same... the timeline DOES change both ways, since the future events that led to incursions into the past didn't happen.
If Kelvin Kirk were to go get some whales, he's going to Kelvin 1986.
We know that time travel can work either way. In DSC, Burnham was able to time travel and directly interact with Past Burnham via the Red Angel. There was no splinter timeline, it was one single timeline. We ALSO know there can be branching timelines, that either replace an existing timeline or establish an alternate universe.
The answer is "Yes, but no, but also yes."
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