Were there other Enterprises between the NX-01 and the NCC-1701?

[Dukhat]

Right, but you don't think there was any tech sharing or anything? The rest of the Federation just hoarded all their tech and laughed at Earth designing new ships with grapplers and stuff?

We're not talking about tech. We're talking about ship design. Or at least I am.

There was some amount of delving... I had not seen that until appearing in this thread. I watch the shows. I was only vaguely aware of who Dave Blass even was

Fair enough.

I think you're also blowing this a bit out of proportion... i'm not saying "the show was ruined because of this". Picard S3 was... the single best season of any Star Trek show ever.

Exclesior could be NCC-2000 no issue. Nothing indicated it WAS (although I think it shows up in the credits, at least). But... Excelsior NCC-2000 in the show looks like Excelsior NCC-2000 from the movie.

So you're willing to agree that the Excelsior is the Excelsior because official background material says it is, but you're not willing to agree that the NX class is the NX-01 even though official background material says it is?

I've ALSO mentioned that several times that it's not really an issue... nor is it a huge deal like, at all. I've also suggested several explanations myself.

I would have preferred that it's just a different NX-Class, speaking from a superfan point of view.

We may be having two entirely different conversations here. This is not some universe-ending issue...

I'm just trying to understand your logic as to why you don't think that ship is the NX-01 when that was the clear intention?

 

[HotRod]

I have eyes. I can look at the a TOS Constitution and the SNW Constitution and see that... they are not the same thing.

What does Saavik look like? Does she look like Kristie Alley or Robin Curtis?

Two things can look different, while being the same thing.

 

[evilchumlee]

What does Saavik look like? Does she look like Kristie Alley or Robin Curtis?

Two things can look different, while being the same thing.

We all have our spot where we draw our lines. Recasts don't bother me as much, because there are real-world reasons why they needed to happen... although Saavik might be a decent issue of an iffy one, because we didn't really NEED to recast Saavik. She could have just been a new character. But... by and large, recasts don't bother me.

An inanimate object? That probably wasn't chosen for need, but because they just wanted to change things. Eaves' original version of the DSC Ent, which actually made it into the show on a display panel, was a much better "visual update". They just wanted to change it for the sake of changing it.

Your line might be different. And that's ok! IDIC! I think this conversation has run its course for now, so LLAP!

 

[Dukhat]

We all have our spot where we draw our lines. Recasts don't bother me as much, because there are real-world reasons why they needed to happen... although Saavik might be a decent issue of an iffy one, because we didn't really NEED to recast Saavik. She could have just been a new character. But... by and large, recasts don't bother me.

An inanimate object? That probably wasn't chosen for need, but because they just wanted to change things. Eaves' original version of the DSC Ent, which actually made it into the show on a display panel, was a much better "visual update". They just wanted to change it for the sake of changing it.

On this point, I completely agree. Other than having a saucer, secondary hull, and two nacelles on pylons in the same general configuration, the TOS Enterprise and the SNW Enterprise have pretty much nothing in common. The interiors are certainly completely different from TOS. The above design attributes aside, they look like two completely different ships, and this was done, as you say, just for the sake of change. And Eaves's display version is really just the same SNW version but with straight nacelle pylons rather than angled. And because they didn't feel the need to 'visually update' the New Jersey in PIC, that change wasn't done because the TOS version wasn't 'realistic' or 'believable' enough to be shown to a modern audience.

 

[evilchumlee]

And Eaves's display version is really just the same SNW version but with straight nacelle pylons rather than angled.

That's the most obvious one, but there's a few subtle differences that really make it look much better. There's less aztecing on the hull, giving it a smoother look, I believe the bridge module is a bit closer to the TOS Enterprise, the neck is taller, and the color palette is closer to the TOS version with the kind of bone-white as opposed to the kind of bronze the Donnie has.

The straight nacelles alone though do wonders.

 

[HotRod]

That's the most obvious one, but there's a few subtle differences that really make it look much better.

Not really. The only significant differences are the Nacelle pylons and the Navigational Deflector.

and the color palette is closer to the TOS version

The Enterprise In Strange New Worlds isn't nearly and dark and metallic as people think it is. The space scenes just tend to be lit in a way that makes her come across that way. When she's near a significant source of light, you get a much better idea of her actual colour. She's a lot closer to they grey of The Original Series than you'd think.

The straight nacelles alone though do wonders.

Not really. Infact, they kinda throw off a really nice design lineage with the NX-01 and the Refit.

 

[fireproof78]

So do I, generally. But there does come a time when if everyone is telling you it's the Enterprise, I'm willing to believe it's The Enterprise.

Indeed, yes. It's called a suspension of disbelief. At some point, it becomes a willingness to not suspend disbelief. It's challenging the viewpoint because it doesn't "feel" right. To me, the ship is close enough. The intent is there, the goal is there, and the update is one that makes sense, and has all the same argumentation as TMP (it's a new era, graphics have gotten better, it's ok to change things.)

And, since it's fiction, some visuals are changeable. For instance, it is known that the command color is more green/gold, but what is described in "Trials and Tribble-ations": "Command officers wore gold."

What does Pike wear? Gold.

At a certain point, to me, it's the desire for the most technical correct aspect of art, not an appreciate for the art itself. And that's a line too far, for me. Mileage will vary.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Altbough we never see the exterior of the ship, there are bridge displays which clearly show the ship in its original configuration.

So?

In the original cut of Star Wars, the language on the panels on the Death Star were in English. In the remastered version, it was changed to Corellian.

If Enterprise ever gets remastered some day in the future, who’s to say those bridge displays won’t be changed to the NX refit?

That sounds more like it. It seemed clear that by 2161 the ship had not received the refit.

We know a few facts.



By 2161, NX-01 did not have the refit. On screen visuals confirm that.

No, it doesn’t. Only that the NX-01 and its senior staff existed as part of a holoprogram in the 24th century.

Plus, it was Riker running that program. And as Riker was not well versed in 22nd history, as established in TNG, he would not notice if something was off with the program.

Now, if it was Picard that was running the program, the program could be accepted as is, as Picard studies history a lot. But Riker? Nah.

Because it's NX-01 in a configuration that shouldn't make any sense for it to be in.

Says who?

The Star Trek 2021 calendar said that the refit occurs in 2156. And remained until 2161.

So, the original configuration was only supposed to last one more year after the Terra Prime incident. Eighteen months at most, if it’s believed from the novels that such a refit takes six months.

NX-01 did not serve under the Federation, as per TNG "Relics".

Again, says who?

The United Nations informally existed during WW2 – that was the official name used for the Allies - before it became a formal organization in 1945. There’s no reason the United Federation of Planets could not have informally existed during the Romulan War and when the peace treaty was signed. And then formally exist in 2161.

So NX-01 was decommissioned by Starfleet, and then received a refit, after it was no longer in service?

No. More like the holoprogram was inaccurate.

But the refit is its own ship class in the novels, called the Columbia class, in honour of NX-02. One of those ships was the USS Endeavour. And the USS Endeavour was treated as much as it was Admiral Archer’s ship as it was Captain T’Pol’s. And AFAIK, that ship was not destroyed.

I would think that a fledgling organization like the Federation in 2161 would want as many ships in their fleet as they could get. The bottom line is that the NX-01 as presented in TATV seemed to have nothing wrong with it, and the only reason why it was being decommissioned was so that ‘canon’ could be restored.

Again it’s a holoprogram. It can be manipulated to suit the user’s intent at will.

Why would Riker program the NX-01 to look like it was shot to shit during the Romulan War, if he was supposed to use it to gain clarity on as to whether or not he should tell the truth about the Pegasus?

Yes, he should just be able to walk through the debris due to the existence of observation mode, but maybe he did not care about historical accuracy that much.

At the end of the day, he saw what he needed to see, and came to his decision.

Sisko didn't serve on her. He served on a ship like her, which was refurbished to look like her. And he also served on other ships. Where are they? And if they were destroyed too, why didn't they refurbish other ships from their class into the ships he served on? Why all the adoration for Sisko anyway?

It’s the Saratoga from TVH. So, a starship that gained notoriety from the whale probe incident.

Its also a Reliant class ship that existed at the same time that Khan commandeered the USS Reliant, another notable incident.

It could also serve as a Battle of Wolf359 memorial. Which makes sense, seeing as that event in-universe is space 9/11. Which would explain why the ship is refurbished to look like Sisko’s Saratoga. To let tourists seen what it would like to onboard during the event.

Refurbishing could also be related to tourism. Specifically tourism from Bajor. Who would want to make a pilgrimage to see the starships that Sisko served on. Which can them be a gateway for some of those Bajoran tourists to join Starfleet.

I see it as less about Sisko, who would be remembered as a Federation war hero, and more about Starfleet history. And specifically,the Saratoga lineage.

Plus, I don’t see any complaints that Picard has two starships that honour him – the Stargazer and the Ent-D – at the fleet museum. So, I don’t get why its such a big deal that Sisko has a couple of ships that honour him as well

It's a larger bothersome issue in new Trek where, despite being portrayed in a visual medium, visuals don't matter?

It's not that simple though, because these stories are told in a visual medium. The visuals ARE critically important.



One of my favorite things about Trek is the vast shared universe. When we get to the point "visuals don't matter, everything changes all the time on a whim", we lose that shared universe.



If you want to use a different visual aesthetic, great. Make a different show. I want it to look like Star Trek.

Star Trek does not care about constructs. And hasn't since the very beginning.

Now it would nice if the writers explained it better, like that it’s a tribute to the NX-01 refit, or just straight up said it was a reboot. But that’s not what they did, or are doing.

 

[mattman8907]

I see holoprograms as their version of our movies and miniseries about historical events. all the names and places are there but they have their own historical inaccuracies. I have so many issues with TATV regarding That wink and smile Trip gives Archer in Sickbay. like did Trip really die? or was his death faked so that he could go on so sort of Secret mission? and also How could Starfleet be producing Warp 7 ships a decade after barely breaking Warp 5?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I hate to be a contrary Mary, but does that really actually rule out an Enterprise in-between NX-01 and the 1701 April, Pike & later Kirk command?

Yes.

The only wiggle room is something that the characters don't know about, like a super-secret Section 31 vessel, which I hope to Gandalf they never do.

 

[FederationHistorian]

How could Starfleet be producing Warp 7 ships a decade after barely breaking Warp 5?

Starfleet still has the data the NX-01 collected from the second Enterprise in the Delphic Expanse. That Enterprise topped out at Warp 6.9, and without a secondary hull. So, that gives them two years to test and build a new engine design suitable for the NX refit design.

Also, in the unused Star Trek: The Beginning script, Sam Gardner Jr - the son of Admiral Gardner - broke the Warp 7 barrier in August 2159. And the USS Spartan can reach Warp 8. Earth's sudden advancement all seems to be done without the help of other Coalition of Planet members that have already reached Warp 7.

There are many plausible reasons as to why Starfleets are producing Warp 7 ships years after breaking Warp 5.

I have so many issues with TATV regarding That wink and smile Trip gives Archer in Sickbay. like did Trip really die? or was his death faked so that he could go on so sort of Secret mission?

Maybe. That’s take of the novels.

The edgier reason would be that Trip somehow committed treason and the crew helped to cover it up, as Trip’s still considered a hero of the Xindi mission on Earth and they wanted to preserve that image.

And Riker, after seeing these events in the holodeck, goes in his head 'oh, that event! The crew never lived this down when Starfleet found out the truth. I’d rather get reamed by Picard over the Pegasus than go down this path. I’ll talk to him I the morning.' As the incident is so significant even Riker has heard about it. And that was why Troi suggested this program to him in the first place.

And if you think my theory is wrong, think about why no one seems to talk about the crew much in-universe. Even if celebrity culture has been toned down by the 22nd century and remains this way through the 24th century, from TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and DIS, they’re awfully quiet about a group of people who are on the level of the Founders of America. Not even a reference to an in-universe equivalent to the Hamilton musical. Even in SNW with its references to the NX-01 crew, they do not refer to them often, even for an inspirational quote.

 

[evilchumlee]

So?
Says who?

The Star Trek 2021 calendar said that the refit occurs in 2156. And remained until 2161.

The episode that takes place during that time frame contradicts that.

Show = Canon.
Calendar = Not canon.

Again, says who?

TNG "Relics"

COMPUTER: Please enter program.
SCOTT: The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship. Let me see it.
COMPUTER: Insufficient data. Please specify parameters.
SCOTT: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of
COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.
SCOTT: NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C, or D.
COMPUTER: Program complete. Enter when ready.

By that date, we had

1701
1701-A
1701-B
1701-C
1701-D

No. More like the holoprogram was inaccurate.

That seems incredibly unlikely. The holodeck was able to create a damn near perfect replica of the 1940's... which should be much more difficult, given that we know a good amount of historical data was lost prior to WW3.

So it can construct a perfect 1940's, but it has trouble with 2161?!

It's much more likely that the ship we see at the fleet museum... isn't Enterprise. Sometimes the easiest explanation is the right one.

This really isn't the hill i'm prepared to die on though. Whatever. It's NX-01. For reasons. There's some way more significant things that make even less sense, like basically anything from Discovery.

Refurbishing could also be related to tourism. Specifically tourism from Bajor. Who would want to make a pilgrimage to see the starships that Sisko served on. Which can them be a gateway for some of those Bajoran tourists to join Starfleet.

I see it as less about Sisko, who would be remembered as a Federation war hero, and more about Starfleet history. And specifically,the Saratoga lineage.

Plus, I don’t see any complaints that Picard has two starships that honour him – the Stargazer and the Ent-D – at the fleet museum. So, I don’t get why its such a big deal that Sisko has a couple of ships that honour him as well

Yeah it's perfectly reasonable that they did that to draw on Sisko's name. He's a Space Celebrity, and an almost literal god to a Federation member world...

The Stargazer in general just makes sense because... they had it. Almost perfectly intact, thanks to the Ferengi. Why not toss it in the museum?

The Ent-D makes sense just because of Geordie. It wasn't even necessarily an official museum project. It was Geordie building a hot rod.

Now it would nice if the writers explained it better, like that it’s a tribute to the NX-01 refit, or just straight up said it was a reboot. But that’s not what they did, or are doing.

That's part of the issue. New Trek wants to desperately to be a reboot, but also won't just... be a reboot.

Just... be a reboot and do whatever the hell you want. When you tell me over and over again that it's all in the same universe, everything happened, that's how i'm going to take it and that's what i'm going to hold you to.

If you want a reboot, that's cool. I support it. Honestly probably the better way to go at this point. But just actually do a reboot.

 

[Dukhat]

So?

In the original cut of Star Wars, the language on the panels on the Death Star were in English. In the remastered version, it was changed to Corellian.

If Enterprise ever gets remastered some day in the future, who’s to say those bridge displays won’t be changed to the NX refit.

ENT was already remastered in HD. They didn't change the displays in TATV.

And Riker would already have known if the NX-01 had gotten the upgrade by 2161, and would have incorporated that into his program. The fact that he didn't is all the evidence we need that the refit hadn't occurred yet.

 

[FederationHistorian]

The episode that takes place during that time frame contradicts that.



Show = Canon.

Calendar = Not canon.

There was a time when the NX refit was non canon and only seen in calendars. And posters on this very board, much like yourself, did not want to accept that the refit would ever appear onscreen and often fought me over it.

Then the refit finally appeared onscreen in PIC S2 and S3.

Maybe don’t be so quick to dismiss my suggestion here. As if TATV is viewed as occurring in 2156 at the establishment of the Coalition of Planets, with several alterations thanks to Starfleet Intelligence and prior to the refit, it makes far more sense.

TNG "Relics"



COMPUTER: Please enter program.

SCOTT: The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship. Let me see it.

COMPUTER: Insufficient data. Please specify parameters.

SCOTT: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of

COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.

SCOTT: NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C, or D.

COMPUTER: Program complete. Enter when ready.



By that date, we had



1701

1701-A

1701-B

1701-C

1701-D

And I made my point that an organization can be informal prior to being formal.

The NX-01 serving as a part of an informal United Federation of Planets fleet – comprised of human, Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite forces - during the Romulan War does not contradict “Relics” at all. Since the Federation is not a formal organization until 2161.

 

[Dukhat]

There was a time when the NX refit was non canon and only seen in calendars. And posters on this very board, much like yourself, did not want to accept that the refit would ever appear onscreen and often fought me over it.

Then the refit finally appeared onscreen in PIC S2 and S3.

And going strictly by canon sources, the NX-01 was not refit by 2161, so therefore the refit had to have occurred after that date.

 

[evilchumlee]

The NX-01 serving as a part of an informal United Federation of Planets fleet – comprised of human, Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite forces - during the Romulan War does not contradict “Relics” at all. Since the Federation is not a formal organization until 2161.

It didn't have the refit yet as of 2161, as per ENT "These Are The Voyages".

If the ship at the museum is NX-01, it received the refit AFTER the formation of the Federation, while no longer in Federation service.

Again, there's any number of potential, finagled reasons WHY, but those are the facts.

My personal favored reasoning is that when NX-01 was decommissioned, they used it for further testing and experimentation. The Starfleet wanted to refit the NX's that were out there, so rather than pulling an active ship out of service to mess around with a retrofit, they used a ship they were decommissioning anyway.

Rather than being a Romulan War design, the refit extended the life of the NX-Class into the early Federation.

So NX-01 both got the refit, but was not in Federation service. We could compare it to the space shuttle Enterprise... a testbed, not an active spacecraft.

Let's also not ignore that, using Dave Blass' information and canon, there are least TWO ships there that aren't exactly the original ship. Enterprise-D is just the saucer section, and Saratoga is just straight up a different ship was rebranded.

Given that the fleet museum apparently has no issue just rebadging a ship... "NX-01" may not be NX-01 at all, rather just another NX that had received the refit and later re-dubbed "NX-01" for whatever reason.

EDIT -

I'm also curious if the New Jersey was just decommissioned while it was still in that configuration, or if the museum had "defitted" it back to that configuration. (a side note, that's a great bit of subtle continuity, as Picard recognized Scotty's bridge and said there was a Constitution-Class at the fleet museum... in the aforementioned "Relics")

 

[fireproof78]

That's part of the issue. New Trek wants to desperately to be a reboot, but also won't just... be a reboot.

Because fans demand it fit together and the writers kowtow to fan demands.

 

[evilchumlee]

Because fans demand it fit together and the writers kowtow to fan demands.

But it doesn't fit together. That's the problem.

I always think looking back on the lead up marketing to Discovery is hilarious. It boiled down to "Hey! Remember the original Star Trek? You all liked that right? Well get ready for show all about nostalgia... but this time, packed with 0% of the nostalgia!"

 

[HotRod]

But it doesn't fit together. That's the problem.

Sure it does. I've been a Trek fan for 35 years and I have no problem whatsoever in connecting SNW with the rest of Trek. Does it occasionally require a little creative thinking on my part? Sure! But that's always been the case. It's half the fun of being a Trekkie.

 

[fireproof78]

But it doesn't fit together. That's the problem.

It does in broad strokes.

It comes down to one's point of view. I take a broad strokes approach, not a strict literalist approach. If it is literal, then to me TMP and TOS cannot abide together, ENT and future shows cannot hang together, and even TNG struggles in places to line up with TOS.

Never mind the minor inconsistences throughout TOS, and TNG.

Sure it does. I've been a Trek fan for 35 years and I have no problem whatsoever in connecting SNW with the rest of Trek. Does it occasionally require a little creative thinking on my part? Sure! But that's always been the case. It's half the fun of being a Trekkie.

Indeed, yes. I have always used my "head spackle" (not canon) to smooth out rough spots. So it goes.