I don't think so. Scotty's frustration with the A in TFF ("I think this new ship was put together by monkeys!") and the way things seemed to be malfunctioning a lot, suggest to me that it was indeed a new ship.
Were there other Enterprises between the NX-01 and the NCC-1701?
- Thread starter Dukhat
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I don't think so. Scotty's frustration with the A in TFF ("I think this new ship was put together by monkeys!") and the way things seemed to be malfunctioning a lot, suggest to me that it was indeed a new ship.
NX-01 was built to be an Earth Starfleet vessel, one the fastest... as of a decade ago, in a decade of rapid technological progression. Remember NX-01 was impressive by human standards... but the other would-be Federation members had Warp 5 ships for centuries prior to Earth.
NX-01 is an antiquated relic compared to the ships of the early Federation.
There's a thousand potential reasons.
That we couldn't see.
The Enterprise-D has things written on doors like "Just sit back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip..." Is that canon? No, it's not, because we can't see it.
Still, it's a somewhat irrelevant point to even argue because it doesn't really matter in the long run. It just means that NX-01 got its refit sometime in/after 2161, and was no longer in Federation service. Those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I think it's potentially not even impossible that NX-01 was decommissioned, and THEN refit as a prototype-experiment. They were retiring the ship anyway, so it may have been better to try out a refit on a retired ship and see how it worked before rolling out to the other NX's that were out there (likely bringing them up to other races standards of warp efficiency, shields, tractor beams, etc.)
I mean... the Enterprise-D was destroyed too...
It's really not a huge leap to say they salvaged and rebuilt it. Once Sisko became famous, the remains of the ship likely got yanked out of some salvage yard and rebuilt.
Unless they gave Kirk a ship that was already malfunctioning before he got it. Perhaps it was the former Yorktown that had its systems disabled by the Whale Probe...
That's all supposition. We have no idea what kind of ships early Starfleet had, or if the NX class continued on. We DO know that early Federation Starfleet was still using the Franklin-type ships (which also had an NX designation). The Franklin-type had been originally produced as Earth ships too, and would have been even more antiquated than the NX-01. Yet early Federation Starfleet still used those.
So we therefore can't use it as an example in this instance.
You're being too nitpicky. The ship was supposed to be the NX-01. We don't need to be spoon-fed on-screen evidence besides the official background material Blass provided.
Then I would like to know exactly why the ship was so noteworthy that they had to refurbish an older ship to make it look like a newer ship. The Enterprise is obviously an exception here (and was only Geordi's pet project not authorized by Starfleet), but what exactly was the Saratoga's claim to fame other than Sisko served on her? One would think that if they wanted a tribute ship for Sisko, the Defiant would have more than sufficed.
That was always my assumption as well. That it was put together, perhaps rather rapidly in the face of needing functional ships, and that the new people didn't do a good job.
Given the obsession in Starfleet with history and Fleet museums it would not surprise me.
In "Emissary" we literally see the Saratoga explode soon after the lifeboats are ejected. So there can be no remains of the ship TO rebuild.
Twas only a flesh wound.
Blass explained that they took the Saratoga from TVH and refurbished it to look like Sisko's version. You're correct that there was nothing left of Sisko's ship to use (other than the lifeboats), but that wasn't the intent.
At this point i'm going "because Dave Blass said so".
The infographic he posted for Saratoga specifically states it was salvaged and rebuilt. I guess we are using stuff like that as canon now?
We can extrapolate based on what the Vulcans and Andorians were shown to have had...
And if we're going with "background information is canon", we can disregard the Franklin. They made some (dumb) assertation that the timeline change went "both ways" and altered both the future and the past.
I think it's the opposite. I'm not being nitpicky at all. Nothing indicated that ship was Enterprise. People went and dug and found some backstage information to nitpick that the ship was Enterprise...
Sisko served on her. That made it famous.
Or if you really want to get the nitty gritty of the WHY, there's several potential reasons. Yeah, Sisko served on her. Also, she was at Wolf 359. Also the museum does not appear to have another Miranda, and the only other Miranda I can think of that would be of any note at all would be Reliant... and Reliant is definitely gone... plus, Genesis and what not may be still classified, so only a handful of people would know of Reliants notability.
So even if it was a different Miranda, it's not outlandish for them to "rebuild" Saratoga out of it, even if there's not much of that Saratoga actually in it.
I wouldn't.
I don't really either, but it seems to be a thing in this thread.
I like to use background information as speculation and a guide to what may have been intended, but ultimately not what actually was. In this case, it's generally better if the ship is NOT Enterprise, so as to not jump through mental hoops to explain why and how.
It states that the NCC-1887 version was salvaged and rebuilt. Not the NCC-31911 version.
What does that have to do with Federation Starfleet?
Simon Pegg made that assertion, but there's no official authority stating that he's correct.
You're being nitpicky. By your logic, you might as well say that none of the other ships were what they were supposed to be because we didn't see them clearly, when the whole point of the museum was to show ships from past Trek series and films.
Sisko didn't serve on her. He served on a ship like her, which was refurbished to look like her. And he also served on other ships. Where are they? And if they were destroyed too, why didn't they refurbish other ships from their class into the ships he served on? Why all the adoration for Sisko anyway?
I'm at a loss as to why it's problematic that the ship we see in the Starfleet Museum is the NX-01.
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At first I thought it was weird that happened, changing up a 120 year old ship for a 40 year old one. Then I remembered I didn't care.
Vulcans and Andorians were... part of it?
Similar situation here though. Dave Blass is saying stuff, and he's involved with it, but does he have any actual authority?
I think it's much more nitpicky to try to delve in and find background information to discover what the ships are rather than just... watching the show.
The Dominion War was a Big Deal. Sisko was a Big Deal in the Dominion War.
It's only speculation beyond that, but I suggested that the Fleet Museum was going to display a Miranda, and the only two Miranda's (that we know of) that were at all noteworthy were Saratoga and Reliant... with Reliant only being relevant to the viewer. The museum could have just made it any old Miranda, but the Dominion War and Wolf 359 are Big Deals, so... why not connect it to Sisko?
It's almost the same situation as having the Stargazer there... the Stargazer is an almost irrelevant vessel other than being Picard's first command. But Picard is kind of a Big Deal, and they had the ship laying around so... there ya go.
Because it's NX-01 in a configuration that shouldn't make any sense for it to be in.
We know a few facts.
By 2161, NX-01 did not have the refit. On screen visuals confirm that.
NX-01 did not serve under the Federation, as per TNG "Relics".
So NX-01 was decommissioned by Starfleet, and then received a refit, after it was no longer in service?
Again, sure... there's ways to explain it. There's ways to explain anything. It was probably better off to just have it be a different NX just for the "oh neat, the NX refit" on screen for the "if you know, you know" factor. That's how I saw it when I first saw the episode. Never occurred to me it was NX-01, because... NX-01 didn't look like that.
It's a larger bothersome issue in new Trek where, despite being portrayed in a visual medium, visuals don't matter? Things change how they appear with relative frequency for no particular reason, somewhat nonsensically. Like we now know that the DSC/SNW version of the Constitution absolutely coexists with the TOS version of the Constitution (actually, Prodigy had already established that.) So it's not even a case of just "visual reboot". They're both there.
I will acknowledge it's all mostly fairly minor stuff (i'll never excuse DSC Klingons), but... this is a Star Trek forum. Feels like an appropriate place to discuss.
Again, we never saw any exterior shots of the Enterprise in TATV, besides the final montage, which can easily be considered outside the context of the actual episode. Yes, we saw a monitor showing the standard configuration. But with the added information provided by Picard, we can now simply look at that as something that has been retconned. It happens.
*Sigh*
No, it really doesn't. It just shows that SNW is using a different visual aesthetic. That's it..it's that simple. It's a tv show that chose to update it's look. Otherwise you have the Enterprise looking like it dud in The Cage, then looking like it did in Disco/SNW, before switching back to TOS.
No.
I trust on-screen information over background suggestions.
It's not that simple though, because these stories are told in a visual medium. The visuals ARE critically important.
One of my favorite things about Trek is the vast shared universe. When we get to the point "visuals don't matter, everything changes all the time on a whim", we lose that shared universe.
If you want to use a different visual aesthetic, great. Make a different show. I want it to look like Star Trek.
It's called a retcon.
The Saratoga that was salvaged was the one from TVH. Not Sisko's.
The infographic says parts of the ship were modified resemble Sisko's. So visitors could see both eras of Miranda classes.
Did their ship designs influence Federation Starfleet? Apparently not, as almost all Starfleet ships resemble Earth ships more than Vulcan and Andorian ships.
Pegg was just a co-writer on one KT film. Dave Blass was the head production designer and artist for PIC working directly under the showrunner Matalas who signed off on all of the design, artwork and specs Blass made.
First, nobody needed to 'delve in and find background information.' Blass freely posted the artwork and design specs for all the ships seen both in the Frontier Day fleet and the Museum online right when the episodes dropped. And we have the aforementioned production designers' info to corroborate what we saw on screen. But by all means go ahead and continue thinking that that Excelsior we saw docked at the Museum isn't the original NCC-2000 just because it wasn't pointed out in dialogue, if it helps you enjoy the show more for whatever reason.
So were all the other Starfleet officers who fought in that war.
Except the Stargazer was the actual thing. The Saratoga was some other ship made to look like Sisko's ship for some weird reason. We had a Sisko tribute already with the Defiant. We didn't need any more than that. I mean, why didn't they change the New Jersey to the Enterprise NCC-1701 so they could tribute Kirk, who was far more notable than Sisko?
It was a tribute to Doug Drexler, who designed the NX-01 and worked on ENT. So the ship got an upgrade after it was decommissioned. So what? We've already come up with several plausible explanations for why that was right in this thread. It's not as huge a deal as you're making it out to be.
So do I, generally. But there does come a time when if everyone is telling you it's the Enterprise, I'm willing to believe it's The Enterprise.
It really it. It's a TV show, not a historical documentary.
It looks like Star Trek.
Right, but you don't think there was any tech sharing or anything? The rest of the Federation just hoarded all their tech and laughed at Earth designing new ships with grapplers and stuff?
There was some amount of delving... I had not seen that until appearing in this thread. I watch the shows. I was only vaguely aware of who Dave Blass even was.
I think you're also blowing this a bit out of proportion... i'm not saying "the show was ruined because of this". Picard S3 was... the single best season of any Star Trek show ever.
Exclesior could be NCC-2000 no issue. Nothing indicated it WAS (although I think it shows up in the credits, at least). But... Excelsior NCC-2000 in the show looks like Excelsior NCC-2000 from the movie.
I've ALSO mentioned that several times that it's not really an issue... nor is it a huge deal like, at all. I've also suggested several explanations myself.
I would have preferred that it's just a different NX-Class, speaking from a superfan point of view.
We may be having two entirely different conversations here. This is not some universe-ending issue...
But not everyone is saying that. Some people are saying that...
Some of it does, some of it doesn't. Some of it looks... like Star Trek but not actually.
I have eyes. I can look at the a TOS Constitution and the SNW Constitution and see that... they are not the same thing. They're... similar things.
I don't want something that looks similar to Star Trek. I want something that looks like Star Trek.
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