Were the Talosians Really That Dangerous?

[C.E. Evans]

My favorite is General Order 24.

I always liked how an antimatter genocide could be unilaterally unleashed in peacetime by the equivalent of an O-6.

One long-standing theory I've always liked is that during TOS, starship captains were granted an extreme amount of autonomy in executing Federation/Starfleet policy because it would sometimes take days for messages to travel back and forth between a deep-space starship and the nearest command base, and some decisions couldn't wait that long and had to be made on the spot. Like in the sailing days of old, the captain was the supreme authority of his government in the absence of a superior authority.

 

[marcusgee]

There is an interesting element to "The Menagerie" that hasn't been mentioned here: that the Talosians weren't really a threat to the Federation or humanity in general. Remember that at the end, the Talosians welcomed Pike to their world of illusion as an act of mercy, freeing him from the prison of his body--and that they made no threats against Enterprise upon her return, and allowed Kirk to leave freely.

Spock obviously knew that this would be the case, or he would have never risked returning to Talos IV. That leaves open the possibility that Fleet Command were more afraid of people finding out about the Talosians' power of illusion and flocking there to live out their lives in a fantasy world. Talk about a population drain! Perhaps that was the threat they were trying to contain?

 

[T'Girl]

.
This is the commander of the USS Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.

You have that long to surrender your hostages.
.

My favorite is General Order 24.

I've always thought that "General Order Twenty-four" was a pre-arrange Hoax. Like when Kirk was on the loony bin planet, and whoever wanted to beam up had to know King to Rook's patio nine. Scotty was never going to fire on the surface.

 

[StarryEyed]

Apparently, Uhura wasn't in on it. Her shock was evident when Scotty finished his spiel.

 

[xortex]

Maybe the secret is that Humanity had the power all along and once unleashed it couldn't be controlled or stopped.

 

[marcusgee]

Maybe the secret is that Humanity had the power all along and once unleashed it couldn't be controlled or stopped.

Now THAT would be interesting...

 

[Myasishchev]

My favorite is General Order 24.

I always liked how an antimatter genocide could be unilaterally unleashed in peacetime by the equivalent of an O-6.

One long-standing theory I've always liked is that during TOS, starship captains were granted an extreme amount of autonomy in executing Federation/Starfleet policy because it would sometimes take days for messages to travel back and forth between a deep-space starship and the nearest command base, and some decisions couldn't wait that long and had to be made on the spot. Like in the sailing days of old, the captain was the supreme authority of his government in the absence of a superior authority.

It would make some sense, with extremely attenuated, slow or destroyed communications, for a captain to be able to undertake such attacks upon the Klingons and Romulans in retaliation for attacks made against Federation planets, or to threaten population centers in the case of an NZ violation. But upon an unthreatening, primitive world like Eminiar? On behalf of a few of your citizens?

I guess the Fed is like the British Empire circa 1850, except with WMDs.

I've always thought that "General Order Twenty-four" was a pre-arrange Hoax. Like when Kirk was on the loony bin planet, and whoever wanted to beam up had to know King to Rook's patio nine. Scotty was never going to fire on the surface.

One hopes that was the case in that instance, although the nature of the threat is so brutal as to make it incredible... this was the problem with early, inflexible American SIOPs--nuclear plans--that would have left the prez with the options of punishing marginal Soviet excesses like an invasion of West Berlin with an all-out nuclear attack on every Communist bloc country on Earth, or no prearranged nuclear option whatsoever. Vaporizing Eminiarian cities for the kidnapping of a few officers and a diplomat is a bit of overkill too. I mean, few responsible people spoke of nuking Isfahan and Fars in 1979, because it's a morally ludicrous option. For that reason, I say such a threat would be incredible, but only unless it had been carried out before, which paints an unfortunate picture of the UFP.

Also, it's funny how they phrased that--why destroy the entire planet? That's not how it's done. When the enemy can't retaliate effectively at all, you start with one city, or even one part of one city, then escalate until your demands are met. Aside from being overkill, it's preferable to leave the enemy something to lose, otherwise there is no incentive to comply.

I'm also curious as to whether Mem-Alpha's assertion that Garth of Izar's invocation of GO 24 is backed by "Whom Gods Destroy," as I don't remember that language specifically.

Finally, in any event, a threat one doesn't intend to carry out only works until someone defies it.

 

[T'Girl]

why destroy the entire planet? That's not how it's done. When the enemy can't retaliate effectively at all, you start with one city, or even one part of one city, then escalate until your demands are met

Anon had lived his entire life in a society at war, the prospect of the Enterprise destroying a few isolated cities might not have had much psychological impact upon him. His primary concern during the entire episode was never Kirk and the Enterprise, it was Vendikar and their destroying his planet. Given that I believe that GO-24 was a bluff and there would have been no progressive escalation, Scotty had to overwhelm Anon right from the start.

 

[SpyOne]

I'm also curious as to whether Mem-Alpha's assertion that Garth of Izar's invocation of GO 24 is backed by "Whom Gods Destroy," as I don't remember that language specifically.

Indeed: no mention of General Orders in the episode, merely that Garth had ordered his crew to destroy the planet and that they refused.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Harumph. Fan speculation is our job, not MA's.

 

[Timo]

But upon an unthreatening, primitive world like Eminiar? On behalf of a few of your citizens?

This aspect could be easily sidestepped: GO24 is for real, but its use in the episode was a bluff. That Kirk intended a bluff was implicit in the fact that the target was the "soft" Eminiar, and not a horrible monster culture preparing to devour the entire UFP in one gulp within the next minute.

OTOH, the idea that GO24 is nothing but a prearranged bluff is certainly an intriguing one. But since this is scifi, we should pay attention to our OTTH as well: in some situations, "national security" (rather than just the hides of Kirk and his crew) could be at stake in a way that would call for the immediate sterilization of a planet or neutralization of its military, industrial or other technological capabilities, and might call for verbal shorthand so that just the three words "General Order 24" would launch the crew to timely action.

But if we look closer at this OTTH, your objection about the level of destruction arises - although I'd apply it in reverse. When Kirk gave the order, Scotty decided to target the planet's "cities and installations". That's an undersized measure if the planet poses an immediate threat to the UFP. A culture so advanced that it could pose such a threat would not be dependent on "cities and installations" to carry out the carnage: stopping there might be worse than useless.

Of course, Scotty would realize that Eminiar was no threat, so regardless of whether he was bluffing, he'd only do as much targeting as was needed for terminating a culture of Eminiar's relatively pedestrian level. But that means that we'd not be seeing GO24 as such in action, just an interpretation of it being implemented.

Finally, in any event, a threat one doesn't intend to carry out only works until someone defies it.

Which reminds us of Garak's advice on never telling the same lie twice. GO24 need not be an order to bluff with the destruction of a planet's cities and installations. It may be a truly general order to apply bluff for blackmailing purposes, allowing the officer in charge to improvise. If so, the enemy could never call the bluff simply by citing precedent. But it would mean that Kirk and Scotty would need to have the same idea about effective bluff, so that they wouldn't contradict each other despite lacking the means to synch their stories.

That's not all that difficult to believe, though. As said,

Scotty had to overwhelm Anon right from the start.

Not too many ways to do that under the circumstances.

Timo Saloniemi