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We're the only ship in range......

Even if Starfleet can't have ships in home territory for whatever reason, you'd think there'd be a seperate organization, like a Planetary Guard that could.

Then again, it has been stated repeatedly that Starfleet is the Federation's only military organization.

Again look at New York City, the Coast Guard may have a few boats around or even luckily a large cutter and the USAF may be able to put up a flight of their most advanced fighter but that would just be a point defense. And their combined capabilities comes no where near a full carrier task force or in Trek terms a cruiser/starship
 
A little late back to the party here, but.....

Is it correct that they found B-4 prior to getting the call from Janeway to go to Romulus? I thought they were already on their way? Forgive me if that's not the case, but NEM is not one of my favorite Trek films and I haven't watched it in years.

If that is the case, then it does make some sense. Although there are still the issues of why clone Picard, why B-4 and why is his positronic signal like a freakin' beacon, why is Wes back in Starfleet, why is Worf back on the big-E, etc.?
 
A little late back to the party here, but.....

Is it correct that they found B-4 prior to getting the call from Janeway to go to Romulus?
Yes.

I thought they were already on their way?
They were a course from Earth to Betazed, for the second half of Riker's and Troi's wedding. The course took the Enterprise E generally close to the RNZ. Picking up the signal of a positronic brain move the ship even closer to the RNZ. Shinzon timed his request for a Federation envoy to coincide with the Enterprise's (and Picard's) proximity to the RNZ. Starfleet then sent the closest ship with a highly train and experienced diplomat.

Which was Picard.

Although there are still the issues of why clone Picard, The Romulans cloned Picard with the hope of one day using the clone to their advantage, exactly when in Picard's life the genetic sample was obtained is unclear. Perhaps the Romulans clone many promising young Starfleet officers. The plan was subsequently abandoned.

why B-4
The B4 could have been in the hand of the Romulans prior to Shinzon seizing power, or Shinzon could have come across it earlier and made it part of his overall plan to acquire Picard's blood.


and why is his positronic signal like a freakin' beacon,
Likely Data set the Enterprise's sensors to include a search for positronic signal as part of routine signal analysis, it was a low level ongoing base operation.

why is Wes back in Starfleet,
I don't think he actual was. Wesley is a traveler, his power isn't fully understood. I believe he simple showed up at the wedding ceromony in Alaska, everyone "remembered" him as being in Starfleet and doesn't remember the event of Journey's End. It also possible that after he left no one would recall that he had ever been there.

why is Worf back on the big-E,
Worf wanted to attend the double wedding of two of his honored friends, so he arranged a little T.D.Y. assignment aboard the Enterprise, basically was aboard the Enterprise as a form of easy transport.

I don't recall if Worf was still assign to DS9 during this time or already engaged in diplomatic duties in the Klingon Empire.

etc
What etc.? This is fun.

:):):):)
 
I don't recall if Worf was still assign to DS9 during this time or already engaged in diplomatic duties in the Klingon Empire.

Nemesis takes place four years after DS9's final season. Worf should have been the Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire in the movie.

And you know, the thing is, they could have kept him as ambassador without effecting the story of the film. He's travelling aboard the Enterprise for the Riker-Troi wedding, but then when they get called to Romulus he acts in the official capacity of Federation diplomat. There was no reason to show him in uniform.
 
^^^ Given the Klingon culture, Worf would have had more status and prestige in his ambassador posting if he retained his Starfleet rank and position.
 
4. Borg Sphere

Though that Borg Sphere didnt just show up in Earth's system unacosted, it thoguth a running battle against a fleet of ships for a long time having been engaged at some point outside of Sol.
 
The B4 could have been in the hand of the Romulans prior to Shinzon seizing power, or Shinzon could have come across it earlier and made it part of his overall plan to acquire Picard's blood.

Quite possibly B-4 was another of the clones the Romulans had prepared for the purpose of infiltrating Starfleet, along with the Picard clone. For all we know, Shinzon and B-4 were dumped at the same time, perhaps even in the same mine...

In any case, it sounds likely that B-4 would have been built by the Romulans, not Soong. The android clone of Juliana Tainer seemed to have a good idea of what Soong had built and what he hadn't built, and she shared that information with Data in "Inheritance". Since Data didn't know about B-4 in advance, odds are that B-4 was some sort of a bootleg copy, naturally of poor quality, based on Romulan industrial espionage of Soong's poorly received early work.

I agree that "positronic signals" would be something Data would have specifically set out to detect, so that they'd trigger an alarm on Worf's do-all workstation. Also, it seems that while Data has some sort of an important processing center inside his head, he actually has a distributed brain structure, with positronic components in all of his limbs... Possibly his components will actively "talk" to each other when separated, and these signals can be detected at some distance?

Timo Saloniemi
 
^^^ Given the Klingon culture, Worf would have had more status and prestige in his ambassador posting if he retained his Starfleet rank and position.

I would think a Klingon wearing a "child's uniform" (as they so often refer to Starfleet uniforms as) would have less status and prestige in an ambassador posting.
 
^^^ Given the Klingon culture, Worf would have had more status and prestige in his ambassador posting if he retained his Starfleet rank and position.

I would think a Klingon wearing a "child's uniform" (as they so often refer to Starfleet uniforms as) would have less status and prestige in an ambassador posting.
Maybe they were referring to the TNG-style uniform. The current First Contact one looks more impressive, IMO...
:klingon:
 
^^^ Given the Klingon culture, Worf would have had more status and prestige in his ambassador posting if he retained his Starfleet rank and position.

I would think a Klingon wearing a "child's uniform" (as they so often refer to Starfleet uniforms as) would have less status and prestige in an ambassador posting.
Maybe they were referring to the TNG-style uniform. The current First Contact one looks more impressive, IMO...
:klingon:
I was referring more to Worf still being in Starfleet, rather than to his apparel, he would not have had to resign his officer's commission in Starfleet to become an ambassador.

:):):):)
 
^^This. It probably happens to a lot of ships, those ships just don't have tv shows about them...

I could swear I remember episodes where the conversation goes something like this:

WORF
Captain. A distress call. A whole planet of babies is on fire.

PICARD
Are there any other ships in range?

WORF
Two, sir, none of them capable_of / too_small_to / insert_some_reason_here_that_keeps_them_from helping.

PICARD
Ah, fuck it, let's go.


:rofl::guffaw: I would have loved to have heard that on screen.
 
We never see planetary defense outside of starships.
Very much to the contrary, we never see planetary defense conducted by starships...

Starships were defending Earth (providing the planet's defense) in First Contact. They were not in deep space. No other planetary defenses (outside of spaceships) are seen.

That is, we do see deep space battles whose ultimate aim may be to stop a fleet or a Borg ship from reaching a planet.

See above.

But in addition, and separately from the above, we hear of battles next to planets, and they appear to be conducted by something described as "planetary defenses", without specific mention of starships (the defense of Jupiter and later Mars in "BoBW" was discussed even if not/partially shown, while the defense of Earth was not discussed nor shown but could be assumed by extension; TMP also discussed defenses).

The term "planetary defenses" is vague. The only thing the satisfaction of the term demands is a plurality systems/things which serve the defensive needs of a planet.

There is no prima facie reason why starships may not be considered part of planetary defenses. For that matter, there is no reason why planetary defenses may not be entirely comprised of starships.

It is a problem that these defenses are mentioned but not shown, because we really can't know what to think of Earth's defenses except that we always wind seeing spaceships serving as the planet's defenses.

Finally, we saw planetary defenses in action in DS9, and cutting to pieces an invasion force half a thousand ships strong, in rather good agreement with the idea that starships are superfluous for defending a planet.

And which planet was being defended? And whose technology were they using?

If anything, this appears to be the exception that proves the rule, because spaceships are elsewhere shown as the players (defenders/aggressors) in planet engagements.

It has been established (TOS) that an individual Starship can serve as a planet-killer (at least in terms of it habitability for humanoids).

Whenever Enterprise comes dashing home Earth's defenses have either collapsed like a house of cards or are being conducted by ships.

What excuse? In TOS, Earth never came under threat.

It did if are a "carbon unit."

In TMP, planetary defenses were explicitly mentioned (although not shown).

Lots of things get mentioned. The action is in use.

In both cases, starships could have been present at Earth but would not have been necessarily stationed there; TMP might have represented a random moment where only insignificant vessels plus one heavy cruiser were in the vicinity, or within a day's travel.

A random moment where they left the planet undefended?

How many random moments like this are there each month?

Was Search for Spock, where the only two ships in space dock are (1) a heavily battle damaged decades old cruiser about to go to the scrap heap, and (2) an experimental craft which has not even been tested at it's designed speed specifications another random moment?

It's all "absence of evidence" stuff here.

Which still counts. More importantly, it counts the sort of speculations, suppositions, and comparisons (to other planetary defenses) you wish to attribute Earth's planetary defenses.

We don't know what Earth's defenses really are. What we do know is that they never work "we the audience" are privy to the action (and since this is a fictional universe, this is the only action that really occurs) and that spaceships duke it out to defend Earth in these situations, and that Enterprise is almost always the only ship in range.


Earth has never come under conventional attack under our eyes.

What is a conventional attack in science fiction? We aren't talking about nukes vs. smart bombs here.

Earth's Defenses should be designed to meet the unconventional threats of Borg and Klingon and Romulan and so on.

We have witnessed a few unconventional attacks, and on two we didn't actually witness much: in TMP, the camera was stuck inside the V'Ger cloud, and in "BoBW", the heroes arrived after all the action was already over and the Borg reigned supreme above Earth. But we know a conventional Breen attack was repelled off camera, we know that planetary defenses were a Federation as well as Cardassian doctrinal choice (they failed on Betazed).

Tell me more about the Breen attack. I am unfamiliar with the relevant particulars.


And thus there probably is one there. It'd be pretty much invisible even if it weren't cloaked (as the corresponding Klingon and Romulan systems no doubt are): the weapons platforms are tiny, space around Earth is vast, and the camera would only stumble on one by astronomical coincidence.

The astronomical coincidence would be that these systems fail so often and that Enterprise is the only ship in range.

Indeed, these systems fail so often that functionally we can say that they don't really exist and that the Enterprise (functionally) is the Earth's main planetary defender.
 
^^^ Given the Klingon culture, Worf would have had more status and prestige in his ambassador posting if he retained his Starfleet rank and position.

I would think a Klingon wearing a "child's uniform" (as they so often refer to Starfleet uniforms as) would have less status and prestige in an ambassador posting.
Maybe they were referring to the TNG-style uniform. The current First Contact one looks more impressive, IMO...
:klingon:

No, I think Gowron made a derisive comment about Worf's uniform in DS9 just before their final fight.

I was referring more to Worf still being in Starfleet, rather than to his apparel, he would not have had to resign his officer's commission in Starfleet to become an ambassador.

Given the low opinion several Klingons have shows towards Starfleet. I would think being one would hurt Worf's standing among them. Then again, he is Martok's blood brother (or whatever) so he could probably afford not to care what other Klingons think.
 
There is no prima facie reason why starships may not be considered part of planetary defenses. For that matter, there is no reason why planetary defenses may not be entirely comprised of starships.
Actual "at first sight" there is a reason. To truly be considered a integral part of a planetary defense, a starship would have to be permanently based at a planet, or constantly in it's immediate vicinity. This is especially true if the starships were the planet's sole defense. A roving starship that just happens to be in the proximity could come to a planets defense, but could don't be considered part of that planet's planetary defense. Because it might not be available.

The Enterprise E during FC is a good example of this, patrolling the Romulan Neutral Zone the Enterprise, while part of the Federation's defense, could not be said to be part of Earth's planetary defense, she had to be redeployed (by her Captain) from the NZ to Earth.

On the other hand, fixed defenses on the surface and orbital defense mounted in satellites would unquestionable be part of a planetary defense.

Seattle has a fine police force and would come running if I called, but I don't consider them part of my home defense,
I have locks, alarms and firearms for that, all of which are actual in my home.

:)
 
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There is no prima facie reason why starships may not be considered part of planetary defenses. For that matter, there is no reason why planetary defenses may not be entirely comprised of starships.
Actual "at first sight" there is a reason. To truly be considered a integral part of a planetary defense, a starship would have to be permanently based at a planet, or constantly in it's immediate vicinity.

"To truly be considered" according to whom?

What you assert is like saying, for a ship to have a captain, it must have only one permanent captain who is always within the immediate vicinity of the ship.

For a few months a ship might serve "on watch" as part of a planet's defense system, and then be relieved by another ship and go perform another task.

This is especially true if the starships were the planet's sole defense. A roving starship that just happens to be in the proximity could come to a planets defense, but could don't be considered part of that planet's planetary defense. Because it might not be available.

Right, and this is why navies don't simply let ships rove around. They give them station assignments. Some ships scout, some ships defend the coast, some ships travel with battle groups, etc.

The Enterprise E during FC is a good example of this, patrolling the Romulan Neutral Zone the Enterprise, while part of the Federation's defense, could not be said to be part of Earth's planetary defense, she had to be redeployed (by her Captain) from the NZ to Earth.

I agree. In fact, she was ordered to stay out of the fray.

Functionally, of course, it would seem that the Enterprise always turns out to be Earth's primary and best planetary defense system since the actual system (whatever it is) always seems to fold like house of cards.

On the other hand, fixed defenses on the surface and orbital defense mounted in satellites would unquestionable be part of a planetary defense.

Sure, but that does not diminish the point that ships may also be part of a planetary defense or entirely make-up a planet's defense system.

Seattle has a fine police force and would come running if I called, but I don't consider them part of my home defense,
I have locks, alarms and firearms for that, all of which are actual in my home.

:)

But if you paid cops to circle your house and/or to loiter in your drive way to keep baddies out of your home...
 
Surely, UFP could spare a DS9 style defense system to protect Earth?

And thus there probably is one there. It'd be pretty much invisible even if it weren't cloaked (as the corresponding Klingon and Romulan systems no doubt are): the weapons platforms are tiny, space around Earth is vast, and the camera would only stumble on one by astronomical coincidence.

Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE]

And thus there probably is one there. It'd be pretty much invisible even if it weren't cloaked (as the corresponding Klingon and Romulan systems no doubt are):

Cloaked, not likely. Khitomer accord. Federation not allowed to cloak anything basiaclly.
 
Starships were defending Earth (providing the planet's defense) in First Contact. They were not in deep space.

They came from deep space, though - all the way from Typhon.

There is no prima facie reason why starships may not be considered part of planetary defenses. For that matter, there is no reason why planetary defenses may not be entirely comprised of starships.

True. But the fact remains that fleets of starships have never been witnessed directly defending planets. The only case where a fleet of starships did show up next to a planet was the tail end of a running battle where at least two ships, the Defiant and the Admiral's ship, were "original players" and none were indicated to have joined the fray at Earth.

If anything, this appears to be the exception that proves the rule, because spaceships are elsewhere shown as the players (defenders/aggressors) in planet engagements.

But again the thing is, they are not shown as defenders, ever. They are aggressors - but only in the hundreds, which indicates that aggression against a planet is always met with the sort of resistance we saw at Chin'toka. Otherwise, a handful of ships would quickly slag a world, as seen in "The Die is Cast" - or a single ship would do that if given enough time. A fleet of mere dozens is described as being incapable of actual military aggression in "Redemption". There must be parity of technology there for the Feds, Klingons and Romulans alike to use the same doctrine against the Cardassians. This is not asymmetric warfare, it's merely one side of a symmetric doctrine.

The very fact that warfare still exists in Star Trek stands proof to the single starship (or a formation of two dozen) being negated as an offensive weapon. Since the starship's offensive capabilities are well demonstrated, corresponding defenses must be postulated, then.

Whenever Enterprise comes dashing home Earth's defenses have either collapsed like a house of cards or are being conducted by ships.

Three counts of the former (although in ST4, the thing coming home was the Bounty), one count of the latter. Other times, Earth does not come under attack, nor do our heroes come dashing home. In two of the former, said collapsed defenses include no collapsed starships in evidence anywhere near Earth. In the remaining one, starships are launched in what doesn't appear to be a last line of defense, but rather a last-ditch attempt to let the ships escape destruction...

It did if are a "carbon unit."

In "The Changeling"? No, it didn't - Nomad was stopped long before even starting towards Earth.

Lots of things get mentioned. The action is in use.

About 90% of Star Trek is talk, for obvious reasons. The use of planetary defenses was mentioned often enough.

A random moment where they left the planet undefended?
How many random moments like this are there each month?

Probably dozens. After all, the planet would only be undefended if the enemy moved in at greater than anticipated speed, so that defenses could not be mustered. That was clearly the case in TMP and "BoBW": Klingons or Romulans could not have achieved the combination of speed and unstoppability, but would have been slowed down enough to get ships arranged into a defensive measure of some sort.

And if Earth had defensive fortifications or other non-starship assets (as explicitly stated in both cases), the low numbers of ships within a few hours' travel would be of even less consequence.

What is a conventional attack in science fiction? We aren't talking about nukes vs. smart bombs here. Earth's Defenses should be designed to meet the unconventional threats of Borg and Klingon and Romulan and so on.

"Conventional" would be the use of those classic killer starships. As seen in DS9, such attacks are indeed nicely defended against, and even the attack of a very large formation is practically suicidal in two onscreen cases out of two.

"Unconventional" would be V'Ger, Whale Probe or Borg Cube, or a ship out of time such as the Narada: an unimaginably fast and invulnerable intruder, against which no defense might exist no matter how much the heroes wished, prayed or cursed.

"Unconventional" would also be a hyperjumping death star such as the Xindi one. Vulnerable to all but primitive 2150s defenses, perhaps, but a different beast from the classic starship nevertheless. Earth's defenses probably are capable of handling that sort of attack by Kirk's time, simply by blowing it out of the sky before it hurts Earth. But that's with a century of head start. On the Borg, the Feds had none (V'Ger had been invulnerable but not that fast, ditto for the Whale Probe, and one assumes they'd still remain invulnerable to 23rd or 24th century weapons).

Tell me more about the Breen attack. I am unfamiliar with the relevant particulars.

What we learn from "The Changing Face of Evil" is that the Breen announce their joining the Dominion War by sending a fleet against Earth. From Starfleet side, we hear that Starfleet Headquarters were targeted, and several buildings and personnel there lost, but that the attack force was mostly destroyed. From Dominion side, we get confirmation that most of the force was indeed lost, but that nobody seems particularly concerned, suggesting it was a Doolittle Raid done for the news value.

Visuals show San Francisco pockmarked with supposed Breen weapons, in what must amount to the wimpiest starship attack ever witnessed in Star Trek. Nothing is shown of the nature of the defense, except that it worked, against a surprise attack (perhaps made possible by cloaking, but not explicated as such).

The astronomical coincidence would be that these systems fail so often and that Enterprise is the only ship in range.

Indeed, these systems fail so often that functionally we can say that they don't really exist and that the Enterprise (functionally) is the Earth's main planetary defender.

The systems don't "fail" - they are defeated. And the Enterprise doesn't save they day because she'd be undefeated - she sidesteps the enemy and wins by a cheat that in two cases out of four is only made possible by the preceding efforts of the systems.

Federation not allowed to cloak anything basiaclly.

But if dem's invisible, how can anybody tell? ;)

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'll never forget that scene with the Borg cube approaching Earth, in BOBW. Three missile type craft are launched against the cube. Just three. And I think they are demolished somewhere near Saturn. Now, I can appreciate avoiding the cost of keeping a fleet on patrol full time around the Earth solarsystem, when the odds of attack are very slim. But certainly a dense matrix of fully automated defense installations could be stationed in various key parts of the solar system to deal with threats. It never struck me like the Federation was hard up for resources. Quite the contrary, the organization seems to be quite flush with them. Why not devote a small portion of that towards precautionary defense measures?

I chalk up the lack of defenses in BOBW to production costs and timing. They devoted a big bulk of that to Wolf359. Otherwise I think they'd have shown much more.

As for using cloaking devices, I can't see any reason why Starfleet wouldn't deploy cloaked defensive platforms within the Earth solar system purely for defense. Why should the Romulans care, unless they had an interest in attacking Earth? ;)
 
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