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We're the only ship in range......

in the last episodes of season 3 of Enterprise, there was no earth ships to protect earth from the weapon, instead it was the andorian ship.

Given how slow Earth ships were supposed to be at that time, there might have been a dozen deployed around the Sol system, none of them reaching the exact battle site within the timespan of the battle...

Although to be sure, Earth should have known about the Xindi ability to bypass defenses and to materialize right next to their target. Deploying defensive starships at a distance would not have been strategically justified, then. Perhaps Earth's only worthwhile warships were on their way to the Delphic Expanse in order to defeat the Xindi on their home turf? A bit silly of the writers to omit Earth defenses, as it would have been dramatically satisfying to see them in action, only to have them soundly defeated by the superior Xindi.

Timo Saloniemi
 
A bit silly of the writers to omit Earth defenses, as it would have been dramatically satisfying to see them in action, only to have them soundly defeated by the superior Xindi.

Indeed, it made no sense for Earth to have no defenses whatsoever. No ships around, no orbital defense network, not even surface to space weapons. Hell, aside from the MIDAS array (or whatever they called it there) there was no presence in space from anyone from Earth.
 
Have you noticed how many times the Enterprise is the only ship in range?
It's in the rules.

Rule 1: Enterprise is always the only ship within range. Always.

Rule 2: Any other ship technically within range is doomed and will be destroyed/FUBARed before it can make its first appearance; hence, Rule 1 applies.
 
Hell, as far back as TMP, the only ship in range to stop V'Ger was the untested, freshly-refit Enterprise. And again, it was at Earth at the time!

Granted the fleet should be out exploring, but you'd think there would be a few defense ships hanging around the capital of the Federation.

TMP was the most ridiculous. How can you make it from the Federation border to Earth and only run into one Federation starship? And it wasn't just any border. It was the Klingon Neutral Zone for fuck's sake. What if instead of V'Ger it was two or three D7 class battlecruisers.

I mean why bother sending a whole fleet of Klingon battlecruisers to engage the Federation Fleet at Organia when you could send a couple of Battlecruisers straight to Earth and only have to engage one Federation starship.
 
Ahem, can't believe this hasn't been posted yet:

inspstarfleethq.jpg
 
That actually is not that far fetched, since the UFP's and Rome's capitals were so far from all external threats.

Yeah, and how many times has it turned out that Earth needs a planetary defense?

1. Xindi Weapon
2. V'ger
3. Whale Probe
4. Borg Sphere
5. Na'kuhl (Storm Front - Enterprise)
6. Romulan Mining Ship

And how many have a missed here? Feel free to list more.

Rome my a$$. How many times does Earth have to be caught with its pants down before it realizes it needs better planetary defenses?
 
That actually is not that far fetched, since the UFP's and Rome's capitals were so far from all external threats.

Yeah, and how many times has it turned out that Earth needs a planetary defense?

1. Xindi Weapon
2. V'ger
3. Whale Probe
4. Borg Sphere
5. Na'kuhl (Storm Front - Enterprise)
6. Romulan Mining Ship

And how many have a missed here? Feel free to list more.

Rome my a$$. How many times does Earth have to be caught with its pants down before it realizes it needs better planetary defenses?

Well, there were actually two Borg incursions, TBOBW and FC. There was also the Breen attack in DS9.

However, I don't think I'd include 5 and 6. The Alien Nazis were time travellers who probably could have gotten past Earth's defenses regardless the time period. Also, they attacked at a time before Earth had space flight capabilities. And finally the timeline was altered at the end of the episode so that those events didn't even occur.

There was a referance to Earth defenses in Trek XI, Nero tortured Pike to get the codes to override them.
 
...And in TMP, where the almighty V'Ger simply turned the defenses off. It probably goes without saying that the even more almighty Whale Probe did the very same thing, as we saw it shutting down starships left and right.

In DS9, we learned that the planetary defenses of at least some of the major players are more or less starship-proof. Probably defensive starships would just get in the way of the defenses in the general case...

Timo Saloniemi
 
...And in TMP, where the almighty V'Ger simply turned the defenses off. It probably goes without saying that the even more almighty Whale Probe did the very same thing, as we saw it shutting down starships left and right.

In DS9, we learned that the planetary defenses of at least some of the major players are more or less starship-proof. Probably defensive starships would just get in the way of the defenses in the general case...

Timo Saloniemi

Suppose that this is an accurate representation of UFP terran defenses.

(1.) This still undermines the analogy to Rome, since the UFP does in fact provide for Earth defenses under this interpretation. These defenses would indicate that the center of the Earth empire is vulnerable to attack (which is why they have the defenses).

(2.) You would think whale probes and V'ger probes would prompt UFP to "pump up" defenses even more. Instead, in First Contact you see a bunch of dinky starships swirling ineffectually around a borg cube until Picard shows up and give them inside information about where to shoot. There were no Planetary defenses in sight. If #1 were true, you would not expect to see engagements like that of First Contact.

The fact is we've never seen the equivalent of an Ion Cannon (Empire Strikes Back) defending Earth. It's always a tiny starship or group of starships.
 
(1.) This still undermines the analogy to Rome, since the UFP does in fact provide for Earth defenses under this interpretation. These defenses would indicate that the center of the Earth empire is vulnerable to attack (which is why they have the defenses).
True. But the same sort of logic that made Rome keep its legions away from the center of power could apply: starships might be a practical means for blackmailing a planet, but fixed planetary defenses and fortifications might be built so that they cannot be easily turned inward. The Cardassians had a central power source for their orbital fortresses as a corner-cutting measure; the UFP might have centralized resources as a means of neutering the offensive potential of the defenses.

And given the existence of cloaked or hyperfast intruders, both of which appeared in the TOS movie era (but perhaps not before), the UFP would have every reason to fortify the space around Earth despite the existence of outlying starship-based defenses. This rationale for having the fortifications might overlap with the earlier rationale by which they were necessary simply because the outer borders of Earth's dominion weren't all that far from Earth yet...

(2.) You would think whale probes and V'ger probes would prompt UFP to "pump up" defenses even more. Instead, in First Contact you see a bunch of dinky starships swirling ineffectually around a borg cube until Picard shows up and give them inside information about where to shoot. There were no Planetary defenses in sight. If #1 were true, you would not expect to see engagements like that of First Contact.
To the contrary, dialogue suggested that the starships were cutting up the Borg vessel rather nicely by the time Picard arrived. Planetary defenses might have held their fire to allow the ships to keep up the good work, much like anti-aircraft cannon often were/are silenced when a successful interception by friendly fighters was/is taking place.

As for the general concept of pumping up defenses, I guess Starfleet is already hitting some very hard limits. All of TNG stands testimony to the fact that Starfleet does not have enough ships, that even getting one ship to the hot spot on the eleventh hour is hard work. Apparently, then, it's impossible to build more ships, or to crew them, or to fuel them, or some other hard limit like that. The same is probably true of planetary defenses: they can annihilate a Breen invasion force before it achieves anything beyond pockmarking one city, but even increasing their strength and extent a hundredfold would not prevent the pockmarks, and would not be affordable or worth the while.

Timo Saloniemi
 
(1.) This still undermines the analogy to Rome, since the UFP does in fact provide for Earth defenses under this interpretation. These defenses would indicate that the center of the Earth empire is vulnerable to attack (which is why they have the defenses).
True. But the same sort of logic that made Rome keep its legions away from the center of power could apply: starships might be a practical means for blackmailing a planet, but fixed planetary defenses and fortifications might be built so that they cannot be easily turned inward. The Cardassians had a central power source for their orbital fortresses as a corner-cutting measure; the UFP might have centralized resources as a means of neutering the offensive potential of the defenses.

Right... ...but the Romans still didn't have Ion Cannons. Their means of defense was simply "guys with spears". When infantry is your means of defense "not having infantry on the capital" means you lack active defense at the center of the empire.

The Romans did not need/did not believe they needed a defense at their core where UFP, under this scenario does.

And since when are our utopian, morally perfected Federation-types worried about about starship captains turning on Earth? Recall, that TOS bragged that there had never been a mutiny in starfllet (Space seed).

To the contrary, dialogue suggested that the starships were cutting up the Borg vessel rather nicely by the time Picard arrived. Planetary defenses might have held their fire to allow the ships to keep up the good work, much like anti-aircraft cannon often were/are silenced when a successful interception by friendly fighters was/is taking place.

Come on Timo, this is purely speculative. We never see planetary defense outside of starships. Very often Enterprise is the only ship within range of Earth.

TAs for the general concept of pumping up defenses, I guess Starfleet is already hitting some very hard limits. All of TNG stands testimony to the fact that Starfleet does not have enough ships, that even getting one ship to the hot spot on the eleventh hour is hard work.

OK, so what was the excuse during TOS and TMP?

Also, a planetary defense need not be a ship (recall the moon command base in Starship Troopers). Even if it is a ship, a dedicated Planetary defense ship would only need limited warp capability to patrol the local waters around Earth.

You big Galaxy class starships are hard to make, but these are self-contained cities of exploration. Defense systems, on the other hand, can be largely robotic (e.g., no need to separate the saucer section).

Apparently, then, it's impossible to build more ships, or to crew them, or to fuel them, or some other hard limit like that. The same is probably true of planetary defenses: they can annihilate a Breen invasion force before it achieves anything beyond pockmarking one city, but even increasing their strength and extent a hundredfold would not prevent the pockmarks, and would not be affordable or worth the while.

This is an interesting idea, but again, is rather speculative.

DS9 was certainly a well fortified location (5,000 torpedoes?) and it was only guarding an entry point for a trade/exploration route. Surely, UFP could spare a DS9 style defense system to protect Earth?

A DS9 style station unleashing a volley of fixed high power plasma weapons and a hail storm of photon/quantum torpedoes would certainly be better than hoping that your cruisers and destroyers and scouts would arrive in time. By comparison they are like pea shooters. And DS9 was not strictly a defensive encampment. It was like a hotel six, shopping mall, embassy, and command post wrapped into one. Surely, a dedicated defense station or ship (manned or unmanned) would not even be as costly as a DS9 (which apparently was an affordable expense to protect a far flung interest).

You're a hell of a debater, but I think you have to admit (if only to yourself) that there is something rather fishy about Earth defenses in Star Trek.

Cheers,

YARN
 
We never see planetary defense outside of starships.

Very much to the contrary, we never see planetary defense conducted by starships...

That is, we do see deep space battles whose ultimate aim may be to stop a fleet or a Borg ship from reaching a planet. But in addition, and separately from the above, we hear of battles next to planets, and they appear to be conducted by something described as "planetary defenses", without specific mention of starships (the defense of Jupiter and later Mars in "BoBW" was discussed even if not/partially shown, while the defense of Earth was not discussed nor shown but could be assumed by extension; TMP also discussed defenses). Finally, we saw planetary defenses in action in DS9, and cutting to pieces an invasion force half a thousand ships strong, in rather good agreement with the idea that starships are superfluous for defending a planet.

OK, so what was the excuse during TOS and TMP?

What excuse? In TOS, Earth never came under threat. In TMP, planetary defenses were explicitly mentioned (although not shown). In both cases, starships could have been present at Earth but would not have been necessarily stationed there; TMP might have represented a random moment where only insignificant vessels plus one heavy cruiser were in the vicinity, or within a day's travel.

It's all "absence of evidence" stuff here. Earth has never come under conventional attack under our eyes. We have witnessed a few unconventional attacks, and on two we didn't actually witness much: in TMP, the camera was stuck inside the V'Ger cloud, and in "BoBW", the heroes arrived after all the action was already over and the Borg reigned supreme above Earth. But we know a conventional Breen attack was repelled off camera, we know that planetary defenses were a Federation as well as Cardassian doctrinal choice (they failed on Betazed).

Surely, UFP could spare a DS9 style defense system to protect Earth?

And thus there probably is one there. It'd be pretty much invisible even if it weren't cloaked (as the corresponding Klingon and Romulan systems no doubt are): the weapons platforms are tiny, space around Earth is vast, and the camera would only stumble on one by astronomical coincidence.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Of course, there's no logical fault as such in the Enterprise being the closest ship to adventure X; at the same time, the Venture might be involved in adventure Y because she is the closest ship to that, while the Business is responding to crisis Z for the very same reason. The camera just happens to follow the Enterprise and thus we only get to see adventure X, not Y or Z. Trek is very consistent about there not being multiple starships available for any job without careful preplanning; nothing wrong about that, dramatically or logically speaking.

Only in special cases does this logic become dubious. If adventures X, Y and Z all are really unique and high-profile, for example, yet all feature the Enterprise as the closest ship, then we might have to invent "reasons" as to why the Enterprise either is specifically sent to these adventure-prone areas, or acts as an adventure magnet (both are sensible assumptions for the E-D which is a UFP flagship and political symbol, less so for the other Enterprises which are just workhorses). But that's not really the case from what we see. Other ships besides the hero one have responded to Borg crises, for example. And we have never been told that these UFP- or galaxy-threatening calamities that Kirk or Picard solved would have been unique or even rare instances; at most, we have been dropped a few hints in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" that Earth doesn't really go to Planetary Panic Status more than a couple of times in a century.

ST:TMP and ST:GEN are rare examples of poor handling of this plot element, because in both cases the adventure lay close to Earth and in the general case there would be multiple ships near Earth (although we've never been led to believe that there would exist a "Home Fleet" that would be permanently positioned near Earth - to the contrary, the UFP might have gone Roman and decided that the military had no business lingering close to the capital world). In ST:TMP, we at least had the small consolation that Kirk's ship might have been the most capable one available; Starfleet would not have benefited from the launching of a lesser vessel, not after learning what V'Ger had done to the cream of the cream of the Klingon fleet. But in ST:GEN, just about any ship would have been better than the E-B in responding to the Nexus emergency.

ST:NEM, OTOH, seems completely logical. Shinzon had obviously carefully engineered the events, making sure that Picard would stumble onto the signals of B-4 and be lured close to the RNZ by them, at which point a message would be sent out calling for a Starfleet envoy to Romulus. Picard would be the closest by careful design, not by accident. No doubt Shinzon had fallback plans and all sorts of means for fine-tuning the timing, too; I wouldn't wonder a bit if he had paid the natives to harass Picard's away team (but not destroy it) so that Picard wouldn't have time to stop and think through the implications of his discovery of B-4.

Timo Saloniemi

As always, all great points Timo. As for the E-B, it may have been a political decision - Pols - "Hey, there' a problem, let's send the fancy new Ent-B." Harriman - "The ship's not ready to go" Pols - "Go anyway". We would hope politicians would be more enlightened by the 23rd century, but various episodes have shown this is not the case, so I would think this would be a possible reason the Ent-B was sent against better judgement.
 
... when are our utopian, morally perfected Federation-types worried about about starship captains turning on Earth? Recall, that TOS bragged that there had never been a mutiny in starfllet (Space seed).
First, you're probably think of the episode The Tholian Web, rather than Space Seed. Second, Starfleet Captains turning on Earth would be an example of a coup d'etat, not a mutiny

The Breen attack force during The Changing Face of Evil was largely destroyed by Starfleet, it was never made clear if the defense was on the part of ships, orbital fortifications or surface based weapons.

In the absence of evidence it impossible to claim that Starships took any part at all in the battle with the Breen that day. the only thing we do know is that "few" of the Breen ships survived the assault on Earth and that Starfleet was responsible (in some way) for the ships destruction.

:)
 
Its all a matter of speed and time. say today a threat came at New York City. There is a chance an interceptor plane can make a point defense but who knows if a Navy ship will be in position to intercept and challenge at a greater distance, giving the time to negotiate and tell a story? And I am talking about a nation at war.

Even with vast fleets they are not always were you need them when you need them. Wagon Train to the Stars may have been the sales pitch but the heart of the franchise is Hornblower saga where the single captain without benefit of backup must make the right decision.
 
Its all a matter of speed and time. say today a threat came at New York City. There is a chance an interceptor plane can make a point defense but who knows if a Navy ship will be in position to intercept and challenge at a greater distance, giving the time to negotiate and tell a story? And I am talking about a nation at war.

Even with vast fleets they are not always were you need them when you need them. Wagon Train to the Stars may have been the sales pitch but the heart of the franchise is Hornblower saga where the single captain without benefit of backup must make the right decision.

But Hornblower was operating at the fringes of the British empire, not just outside London where one would expect quite a few more Royal Navy ships to be available.
 
An important element of the Royal Navy as well as quite a few others was that the organization couldn't afford to keep all its ships at sea. In contrast, one might assume Starfleet cannot afford not to field every last one of its vessels 24/7/52, or whatever timekeeping system they happen to use. There might be no "Home Fleet", no "Fleet in being" type of strategic reserve of starships situated far away from the hot spots.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Even if Starfleet can't have ships in home territory for whatever reason, you'd think there'd be a seperate organization, like a Planetary Guard that could.

Then again, it has been stated repeatedly that Starfleet is the Federation's only military organization.
 
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