No, actually, he spoke with his natural British accent.
Were MACOs Special Operations Forces or regular infantry?
- Thread starter Shamrock Holmes
- Start date
No, actually, he spoke with his natural British accent.
Israeli Defence Forces also use a very similar insignia and major or its equivalent having a single discreate insignia different from that worn by Lieutenants isn't unusual.
Even in modern day, the AMA routinely trains foreign students (up to 60 at any one time, including at least one Filipino by law) and the oak leaf could be explained as a historical reference chosen for ease of identification. As far as the MACOs all being American, I'll give you that but counter with the question of "writer intent" - if they were meant to be American then why not use an existing force like the USMC, SEALs or Rangers (the absense of a US Flag from the uniform is also suggestive IMO)?
Given that IFAIK the name was only ever rendered as Military Assault Command Ops (which could stand for Operator(s) as easily as Operations), Military Assault Command Organisation or MACO, then the full title could Operations Division, United Earth Military Assault Command (very similar in format to United Earth Starfleet Command) and logically UE should have military forces, and every function that the MACOs are used for is consistent with them being this force, so I'm unconvinced that there is any advantage to them not being such and no conclusive evidence that they aren't (though I'll give you that Hayes and his men are probably part of, for instance, 1st MACO Brigade (USA) rather than being an ad hoc international mis-mash at squad level.
How ad hoc would Earth's overall response be? They had months to react to the first Xindi bombardment, but it wasn't until Archer's arrival that they could formulate a reasonable response. Sailing to the Delphic Expanse for aggressive recce is an unlikely response, compared to, say, amassing all available Starfleet assets into the Sol system or building anti-starship gun batteries or whatnot. The MACO team may well have been a last-minute or at least last-week consideration.
From this it might follow that they have to grab whatever they can, and it happens to be a choice between rookies trained in deep space ops and veterans trained in protecting embassies. Yet mere haste would not account for the "all-American hypothesis"; to go by that hypothesis, we'd have to infer that the Military or at least its Assault Command routinely trains its special Operators in nationally tainted teams for some sort of psychological benefit. But we could also argue that everybody in the UE Military trains at West Point (just like everybody in the UE Starfleet trains at San Francisco) and quickly loses his or her natural accent there thanks to futuristic speed-learning techniques...
Timo Saloniemi
From this it might follow that they have to grab whatever they can, and it happens to be a choice between rookies trained in deep space ops and veterans trained in protecting embassies. Yet mere haste would not account for the "all-American hypothesis"; to go by that hypothesis, we'd have to infer that the Military or at least its Assault Command routinely trains its special Operators in nationally tainted teams for some sort of psychological benefit. But we could also argue that everybody in the UE Military trains at West Point (just like everybody in the UE Starfleet trains at San Francisco) and quickly loses his or her natural accent there thanks to futuristic speed-learning techniques...
Timo Saloniemi
I'd suggest that casting multi-national actors to play what's essentially a handful of recurring background extra's wasn't high on the casting directors list. Much like the number of background crew who were seen on Voyager over it's 7 season run was more than the 150 or so "official" crew manifest, we can assume that what's explained on-screen is probably more accurate than what's necessarily seen.
It's not even that they could have "cast multinational" any more than they did. The MACO came in all phenotypes, races, skin colors, what-have-you. But for obvious practical reasons they absolutely had to speak recognizable English if they had speaking parts, so there would have been no point in casting from Guatemala, Albania or Bangladesh.
Conversely, very few of the MACO ever spoke. Anybody who did not can easily be assumed to "actually" have had a thick Burgundian or Upper Martian accent.
Timo Saloniemi
Conversely, very few of the MACO ever spoke. Anybody who did not can easily be assumed to "actually" have had a thick Burgundian or Upper Martian accent.
Timo Saloniemi
Not true, there are a lot of "multi-national" actors in Hollywood who can speak perfect english, or "next-generation" american actors with lets say asian or arabic appearence. And anyone with a big enough speaking part can get a voice coach to give a subtle accent. It simply wasn't important enough to the producers and shouldn't be harped on by the fanatics.
Ummm, MACO doesn't strike me as Special Forces, more like elite infantry like US Army Rangers, who specialize in just killing, and deploying.
A lot of people think they are special forces, but they are not. I know for certain, I was a paratrooper, tried out for them. They are just a better funded, more independent, but still quiet normal Airborne Unit.
You give a unit enough money and training time, and a elite status, but keep it's command structure orthodox, as well as it's expectation to still deploy like any other unit, albiet as the tip of the spear, and give it open recruiting and authority over it's own school, you end up with something like the Rangers. MACO almost certainly took that as it's model prior to Archer taking them on board to be used like Marines.
Rangers aren't Marines, every Marine respects that Airborne and Ranger Tab, but nobody is gonna presume Rangers know beaches better than Marines or sitting on a ship for a year, or vice versa, you can throw just any Marines out a Airplane and expect them to operate deep in the jungle surrounded. The skill sets are specialized in US Infantry.... MACO would of been in a position to inherit the traditions of EVERY Earth unit. They may of pressed Doctrine far past what American Standards would accept.... after all, MACO were quick on blind obedience and dying cause the mission comes first.... Gotta say, that's not current US attitudes, and isn't the Ranger Way. Yeah, they will play lip service to that, act agast, but the second casualties start occuring, mission shifts to preservation of the wounded, leave no man behind. Why battles can involve 9 Hour shootouts, troops are careful to move forward only when they think they can survive.
MACO.... man.... MACO would just jump into stupid shit, cause Captain says. Not even a militarily trained Captain, he is like the equivalent of a captain of a Antarctic Ice Breaker going to investigate Lichen. You gotta go to North Korea or WW2 Bonzai for that sort of dedication. Earth in MACO's era had full rights to call upon and mix up ideas.
Nothing about MACO suggests special forces to me. Like I said, Rangers are elite killers, a presidential unit, but not Special Forces. My Airborne Unit I was a member of was topped out on Ranger and Special Forces candidates that didn't make it.... Special Forces can fight, don't get me wrong at all, but US Special Forces for the Army at least are basically deployable Drill Sargents for the third world. You send them into a country to meet up and train with the locals, most School of the America's units training involved SF guys from what a Drill Sargent who flunked out like 7 some times told me. Yes, you get to go on some amazing missions. You also get stuck with some lame pointless soul crushing missions teaching guys in the third world how to March around and hold a weapon. Rangers, not so much. They just straight up and kill, all they cars about.
Naval and Marine and yes, AirForce (do too exist), specialize on scouting or extraction.
Does the US even exist in Archers time? I thought we died off in WW3? No doubt something kinda survived of us, and no reason for it not to be heavily based on US norms, but umm.... that only signifies the most elite infantry corps had headquarters in North America. Other arms like still needed Tank Corps, Mech Infantry, Coastal Units, could of been hubbed in terms of headquarters in Hong Kong, Tasmania, New Delhi, Banjul, etc.
MACO was big on martial arts too, more so than most American units even with SF. Think they were far more about quick MOUT strikes, and individual martial arts. Likely cause they were hardly ever used in mass, but attached to larger, not so awesome Infantry units. If a commander needed a room cleared for certain and intact, send in MACO, but expect casualties to them if used too much- they can clear a few rooms quick, repel, use night sticks like a badass, but die from being overwhelmed without support easily a few rooms deep if enemy forces keep pressing up against them. If you don't need the building intact or care about hostages, send in the regular infantry.
I can't speak for Delta Force, cause I never knowingly saw them. I know they recruit heavily from the Rangers though, just like Special Forces recruit from Rangers. Special Forces can kill, are amazingly efficient killers, but that's due to technology. They aren't "killers" though. Rangers train to kill. They like to kill. They will kill you with a stick if they gotta.
Rangers come closest to MACO, but admittedly nothing today quite fights like MACO (thankfully, we would loss wars if so). MACO was obviously being pressed from a land based Infanty role into a ship based Marine role under some questionable captains, so remember, they were in a state of awkward adjustment too.
Don't be surprised if they ever mention going through a training course in Pyongyang, or having a tradition dating back to Stalin's era though. They are very much a earth force, however Ranger like they behave. They have the full right to pull from any tradition they see fit. If Vulcan's join, don't be surprised they fall in love with a Vulcan concept or two later on down the road, after the Federation is fully founded.
I can't really take a starship's security force bumbling around with phasers seriously. In Star Trek, still very much a need for real killers, just hard to explain sending science vessels or ships with little kids living on them having MACO on board. I'm sure they had something just larger than Delta Flyer sized. That's about the size you need for a squad. Maybe just a team if you like personal room, but think a squad with bunks can pull it off just fine. Land, kill, fly off. Fit into any large shuttle bay just fine.
A lot of people think they are special forces, but they are not. I know for certain, I was a paratrooper, tried out for them. They are just a better funded, more independent, but still quiet normal Airborne Unit.
You give a unit enough money and training time, and a elite status, but keep it's command structure orthodox, as well as it's expectation to still deploy like any other unit, albiet as the tip of the spear, and give it open recruiting and authority over it's own school, you end up with something like the Rangers. MACO almost certainly took that as it's model prior to Archer taking them on board to be used like Marines.
Rangers aren't Marines, every Marine respects that Airborne and Ranger Tab, but nobody is gonna presume Rangers know beaches better than Marines or sitting on a ship for a year, or vice versa, you can throw just any Marines out a Airplane and expect them to operate deep in the jungle surrounded. The skill sets are specialized in US Infantry.... MACO would of been in a position to inherit the traditions of EVERY Earth unit. They may of pressed Doctrine far past what American Standards would accept.... after all, MACO were quick on blind obedience and dying cause the mission comes first.... Gotta say, that's not current US attitudes, and isn't the Ranger Way. Yeah, they will play lip service to that, act agast, but the second casualties start occuring, mission shifts to preservation of the wounded, leave no man behind. Why battles can involve 9 Hour shootouts, troops are careful to move forward only when they think they can survive.
MACO.... man.... MACO would just jump into stupid shit, cause Captain says. Not even a militarily trained Captain, he is like the equivalent of a captain of a Antarctic Ice Breaker going to investigate Lichen. You gotta go to North Korea or WW2 Bonzai for that sort of dedication. Earth in MACO's era had full rights to call upon and mix up ideas.
Nothing about MACO suggests special forces to me. Like I said, Rangers are elite killers, a presidential unit, but not Special Forces. My Airborne Unit I was a member of was topped out on Ranger and Special Forces candidates that didn't make it.... Special Forces can fight, don't get me wrong at all, but US Special Forces for the Army at least are basically deployable Drill Sargents for the third world. You send them into a country to meet up and train with the locals, most School of the America's units training involved SF guys from what a Drill Sargent who flunked out like 7 some times told me. Yes, you get to go on some amazing missions. You also get stuck with some lame pointless soul crushing missions teaching guys in the third world how to March around and hold a weapon. Rangers, not so much. They just straight up and kill, all they cars about.
Naval and Marine and yes, AirForce (do too exist), specialize on scouting or extraction.
Does the US even exist in Archers time? I thought we died off in WW3? No doubt something kinda survived of us, and no reason for it not to be heavily based on US norms, but umm.... that only signifies the most elite infantry corps had headquarters in North America. Other arms like still needed Tank Corps, Mech Infantry, Coastal Units, could of been hubbed in terms of headquarters in Hong Kong, Tasmania, New Delhi, Banjul, etc.
MACO was big on martial arts too, more so than most American units even with SF. Think they were far more about quick MOUT strikes, and individual martial arts. Likely cause they were hardly ever used in mass, but attached to larger, not so awesome Infantry units. If a commander needed a room cleared for certain and intact, send in MACO, but expect casualties to them if used too much- they can clear a few rooms quick, repel, use night sticks like a badass, but die from being overwhelmed without support easily a few rooms deep if enemy forces keep pressing up against them. If you don't need the building intact or care about hostages, send in the regular infantry.
I can't speak for Delta Force, cause I never knowingly saw them. I know they recruit heavily from the Rangers though, just like Special Forces recruit from Rangers. Special Forces can kill, are amazingly efficient killers, but that's due to technology. They aren't "killers" though. Rangers train to kill. They like to kill. They will kill you with a stick if they gotta.
Rangers come closest to MACO, but admittedly nothing today quite fights like MACO (thankfully, we would loss wars if so). MACO was obviously being pressed from a land based Infanty role into a ship based Marine role under some questionable captains, so remember, they were in a state of awkward adjustment too.
Don't be surprised if they ever mention going through a training course in Pyongyang, or having a tradition dating back to Stalin's era though. They are very much a earth force, however Ranger like they behave. They have the full right to pull from any tradition they see fit. If Vulcan's join, don't be surprised they fall in love with a Vulcan concept or two later on down the road, after the Federation is fully founded.
I can't really take a starship's security force bumbling around with phasers seriously. In Star Trek, still very much a need for real killers, just hard to explain sending science vessels or ships with little kids living on them having MACO on board. I'm sure they had something just larger than Delta Flyer sized. That's about the size you need for a squad. Maybe just a team if you like personal room, but think a squad with bunks can pull it off just fine. Land, kill, fly off. Fit into any large shuttle bay just fine.
I agree that MACO aren't like US Army Special Forces - for reasons explained further down your post - in fact that wasn't the question. The question was are they are special operations forces, which I believe they are, though whether that's as a pure "small unit tactics" group like Delta or the British SAS/SBS or a more "small or medium unit" group like the Rangers or British Paras/Rock Apes I'm not certain. The mission profile and membership (minimum of one-striper) and the fact that they are lead by a field officer rather than a junior officer would seem to support the latter but I'm not dogmatic on the point.
I don't quite get what you are saying. If a character appears black and speaks perfect US English, why should it matter whether the actor is American or Ghanaese? Or 7th generation American or 1st generation one? The MACO as shown did feature "ethnic types", and adding more of those would in no way have made the force less prone to the "They are all American" accusation because the United States armed forces today already feature all ethnic types anyway. So where does the ENT effort fall short?
Or invent an accent of your own, like, say, Doohan. But it's not the sign of diversity in Star Trek for somebody to speak pidgin English. And it certainly isn't a sign of US identity for somebody to speak Californian English - heck, Klingons and Cardassians manage that, too!
Again, what "more" or should the producers have done in the "ideal" case if they really did "mind"? Introduced more accents? Added the archetypal Lithuanian dwarf?
Timo Saloniemi
The MACOs we see in Enterprise function as Recon Marines.
-They serve as a detachment aboard a Naval Vessel.
-They have an infantry rank structure(Major, Sergeant, Corporal, etc)
-They have an infantry unit structure(The Platoon Leader physically leads the missions. The enlisted include many lower enlisted)
-They have diverse capabilities such as direct action, and raids, reconnaissance, Even diving(space diving, that is)
-Even their uniforms resemble the new marine utility uniform(with "digital" pattern) introduced in 2002, before any other services, or possible any other countries introduced a "digital camo"
They don't appear to be trained in
-diplomatic relations
-linquistics/foreign languages
-hunting down high value bad guys
-training local insurgents
or other tasks that Navy Seals and Army Special Forces are used for.
Just my 2 cents.
-They serve as a detachment aboard a Naval Vessel.
-They have an infantry rank structure(Major, Sergeant, Corporal, etc)
-They have an infantry unit structure(The Platoon Leader physically leads the missions. The enlisted include many lower enlisted)
-They have diverse capabilities such as direct action, and raids, reconnaissance, Even diving(space diving, that is)
-Even their uniforms resemble the new marine utility uniform(with "digital" pattern) introduced in 2002, before any other services, or possible any other countries introduced a "digital camo"
They don't appear to be trained in
-diplomatic relations
-linquistics/foreign languages
-hunting down high value bad guys
-training local insurgents
or other tasks that Navy Seals and Army Special Forces are used for.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree with some of the above:
In current US military lingo, the MACOs would be VBSS teams which can include Force Recon Marines, but also includes USN/CG ratings (typically BM & GMs for the most part, but SpecOps SO's/SB's from the SEALs or USCG DOGs will take part if available) and depending on the situation regular USMC infantry, EOD, CRBN, intel or CG law enforcement personnel may also take part.
The differing rank structure only confirms that they are a seperate service from Starfleet - which we knew - and as far as ranks goes, all we know for definate is that they have three enlisted ranks - Sergeant (usually E5 in the US but can be higher in the UK), Corporal (usually E4 in the US, but UK Corporals (or even Lance Corporals) typically fill E5 equivalent billets), and MACO (usually equiqated to Private in fanon, but more plausibly PFC (ie fully qualified) and potentially eligible for Lance Corporal/Acting Corporal roles in assigments with larger numbers of personnel.
As far as the Platoon Leader (or more generically the Officer Commanding) leading the teams, that is IFAIK a more common default in SpecOps rather than regular infantry (SF A-Teams for instance have two officers (either 1 Commissioned and 1 Chief Warrant or 2 Commissioned) per 10 operators whereas in the regulars it's more like 1:30 and mid/senior enlisted lead in the field unless most of the platoon is deployed?
Although, that wasn't there original purpose, they were assigned to the NX-01 specifically for the Xindi mission, though they ended up staying afterwards. It is ironic they basically supplanted the NX-01's security services, to the point that aside from Reed, there's only two or three Starfleet Security officers on the NX-01 in seasons 3 and 4. After all, the original intent when Enterprise was in development was that Reed was going to be a Starfleet Marine, and CO of the ship's Marine detachment. But Paramount overruled, claiming it wasn't "Star Trek enough" and demanded Reed and his personnel be security officers like in the other shows. But then three years later the MACOs come in and fill the same role.
I think that's virtually certain. However, I think that we can make a few assumptions, based on existing trends to "fill in the gaps" caused by the writers including only the "essentials":
For instance, I think the "real" structure of MACOs is unlikely to favour the SF "A-team" structure as this would require additional junior officers or senior NCO/warrant officers as fire-team leaders (none of which are canon), whereas most other forces (SpecOps and regular) use NCOs in this role, which - depending on whose rules you use - may be reconcible with known evidence.
US Military policy suggests that the MACO detachment should have had at least one senior NCO as "Platoon Sergeant" (an E6 or E7 depending on service), and a couple of "Squad Leaders" (E5 or E6 depending on service). This is improbable as MACO ranks appear to go up to only E5 (maybe even E4 given that they are somewhat USAF-esque in style).
However, if the MACOs are using police or British infantry ranks then MACO Corporals would fill the Squad Leader role (likely ranking with UESF Crewman 2nd Class), the MACO Sergeants (likely ranking with the UESF Crewman 1st Class) would match the billet of "Platoon Sergeant" (paid as E5 equivalent, but billetable to E6) and "missing" senior ranks of Staff Sergeant and above would only be billeted at company or battalion-level (not likely to be found on starships until the mid-to-late 2200s) and therefore not "wrong" in the context of Enterprise.
The MACOs are probably some pre-UFP organization with US roots that performs marine and SpecOps duties.
While earth hasn't had much in the way of conflict with aliens at this point the MACOs are apparently the best of the best of the best in terms of SpecOPs and so would be valued when dealing with hostiles whether they be renegade augments, pirates, or hostile aliens.
While earth hasn't had much in the way of conflict with aliens at this point the MACOs are apparently the best of the best of the best in terms of SpecOPs and so would be valued when dealing with hostiles whether they be renegade augments, pirates, or hostile aliens.
Or, alternatively/in addition, the least politically controversial such force in Earth's menagerie of ex-national military instruments. Perhaps the US has been in charge of the United Earth military during all those years the UE did not yet encompass a significant portion of the world's nations (pre-2150)? Or perhaps the US stayed out of that mess, therefore avoiding a bad rep?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
^ They don't have chow, they have HOT DISH.
Given that Hayes was trained at West Point (a US Army training school), it's not unlikely that he spent some time with the Army Rangers, Screaming Eagles or All Americans before joining the MACOs.
The MACOs themselves are, IMO, preferably an international force (given it primarily space-based activities) however it is unclear whether they are a "full service" organisation (with their own training, logistics and staff corps) or a "hybrid" organisation (recruiting/seconding personnel from national forces under a single chain-of-command for joint purposes, similar to NATO Rapid Reaction Force, Eurocorps).
The MACOs themselves are, IMO, preferably an international force (given it primarily space-based activities) however it is unclear whether they are a "full service" organisation (with their own training, logistics and staff corps) or a "hybrid" organisation (recruiting/seconding personnel from national forces under a single chain-of-command for joint purposes, similar to NATO Rapid Reaction Force, Eurocorps).
If there's to be any sort of dissolving of nation-states as part of the process of forming United Earth, then disbanding their separate armed forces would be an absolute priority. So the timetable of the United States ceasing to exist would be of paramount importance to the matter of soldiers trained at West Point.
We know there's a national flag still extant as of 2079, so WWIII didn't end the story of the USA (even if our first references to United Earth come immediately after that war, in the form of our first references to UESPA). We know the world unites under a single government in 2150. We do not hear of national armies after the era in which Hayes takes West Point and Reed's dad serves in the Royal Navy - that is, supposedly at most a decade or three before 2150, depending. But we could at least draw conclusions regarding the otherwise ambiguous role of West Point from the fact that the Royal Navy, as close to an explicit national force we're ever gonna get, very much survives and operates at that time.
The latter years of the USA and the early years of the MACO are left utterly undescribed in canon, so we don't even know if there's any overlap. What is the last time we see a national flag (inappropriate uses such as "Patterns of Force" or "Omega Glory" notwithstanding)? Is it the Union Jack on the 2260s London of ST:ID? And should that be considered some sort of a "Remember the United Kingdom Day" anachronism, or some sort of evidence that the UK survives in some form?
Plenty of possible interpretations available. Any relevant tidbits to add?
Timo Saloniemi
We know there's a national flag still extant as of 2079, so WWIII didn't end the story of the USA (even if our first references to United Earth come immediately after that war, in the form of our first references to UESPA). We know the world unites under a single government in 2150. We do not hear of national armies after the era in which Hayes takes West Point and Reed's dad serves in the Royal Navy - that is, supposedly at most a decade or three before 2150, depending. But we could at least draw conclusions regarding the otherwise ambiguous role of West Point from the fact that the Royal Navy, as close to an explicit national force we're ever gonna get, very much survives and operates at that time.
The latter years of the USA and the early years of the MACO are left utterly undescribed in canon, so we don't even know if there's any overlap. What is the last time we see a national flag (inappropriate uses such as "Patterns of Force" or "Omega Glory" notwithstanding)? Is it the Union Jack on the 2260s London of ST:ID? And should that be considered some sort of a "Remember the United Kingdom Day" anachronism, or some sort of evidence that the UK survives in some form?
Plenty of possible interpretations available. Any relevant tidbits to add?
Timo Saloniemi