Weird promotion practices

[Pauln6]

^You're not calculating journey times based on those worthless warp speed charts from the technical manuals, are you? They've never had anything to do with the warp speeds in the show, which have always been totally random, from TOS through to STXI and everything in between.

I knew somebody would fall in to this trap. It doesn't matter whether the warp speeds can be quantified or not, the issue is that Warp 9 is comparatively much faster than Warp 4. If it takes Enterprise ten minutes to reach Earth at Warp 4, a ship from further away can get there much faster at Warp 9. Or is Warp 9 slower than Warp 4 when speed of plot is applied? It still isn't clear how Enterprise beat Narada to Earth, so maybe...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Part of the problem is that Kirk and Pike are the only ones who got rewarded. None of the other characters got promoted. Pike was made an Admiral and he was captured almost as soon as the Enterprise arrived and had nothing to do once he was rescued. Spock wasn't even offered the First Officer position. He had to go ask Kirk for it like Oliver Twist asking for more gruel.

They all graduated and were assigned senior positions on the flagship of the Federation. If that's not a reward I don't know what is.

What do you mean Spock wasn't offered the first officer position? He was the first officer of the Enterprise. He was planning on leaving and joining the Vulcan colony until his older self talked him out of it.

I've got to see the kkozoriz1 cut of the film one day.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^You're not calculating journey times based on those worthless warp speed charts from the technical manuals, are you? They've never had anything to do with the warp speeds in the show, which have always been totally random, from TOS through to STXI and everything in between.

I knew somebody would fall in to this trap. It doesn't matter whether the warp speeds can be quantified or not, the issue is that Warp 9 is comparatively much faster than Warp 4. If it takes Enterprise ten minutes to reach Earth at Warp 4, a ship from further away can get there much faster at Warp 9. Or is Warp 9 slower than Warp 4 when speed of plot is applied? It still isn't clear how Enterprise beat Narada to Earth, so maybe...

And you know how fast Nerada was capable of going? IIRC it was never mentioned. We've never seen a Romulan ship like the Nerada before. Would a mining ship have a warp 9 drive? Do you know how far away the Federation fleet was?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Part of the problem is that Kirk and Pike are the only ones who got rewarded. None of the other characters got promoted. Pike was made an Admiral and he was captured almost as soon as the Enterprise arrived and had nothing to do once he was rescued. Spock wasn't even offered the First Officer position. He had to go ask Kirk for it like Oliver Twist asking for more gruel.

They all graduated and were assigned senior positions on the flagship of the Federation. If that's not a reward I don't know what is.

What do you mean Spock wasn't offered the first officer position? He was the first officer of the Enterprise. He was planning on leaving and joining the Vulcan colony until his older self talked him out of it.

I've got to see the kkozoriz1 cut of the film one day.

Yeah, my cut of the film includes all the inconsistencies that you seem to miss.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0796366/quotes?qt0550060

Spock: [Kirk has been appointed captain, and the Enterprise is preparing to depart. Spock enters the bridge] Permission to come aboard Captain.
James T. Kirk: Permission granted.
Spock: As you have yet to select a first officer, respectfully, I would like to submit my candidacy. Should you desire I can provide character references.
James T. Kirk: It would be my honor Commander.

It sure looks to me like Kirk was getting ready to ship out without a First Officer and Spock offered his services. Kirk didn't ask for him to be assigned or to serve as First Officer.

 

[Pauln6]

And you know how fast Nerada was capable of going? IIRC it was never mentioned. We've never seen a Romulan ship like the Nerada before. Would a mining ship have a warp 9 drive? Do you know how far away the Federation fleet was?

Narada can travel fast enough to get from Klingon space to Vulcan space in (less than?) a day. Quonos to Rura Penthe is a much greater distance than Vulcan to Earth but it might give us an idea how fast she travels.

The problem remains if the distance from Vulcan to Earth can be covered in a matter of hours at low warp then higher warp can cover even greater distances in the same space of time. So the fleet is too far away (200+ light years away one assumes) to beat the Narada but the Kirk's mission doesn't need the fleet, only somebody with the information he has and a transporter.

The plot gets sillier and sillier if there are no Warp 9 capable ships anywhere within 200 light years of Earth? That could be half the width of the Federation! Kirk still gambles that he can beat the Narada to Earth in place of a faster ship with no information to support that assumption. We know why they did it but that doesn't make it less silly. I wish they'd been a bit more sensible in their approach.

 

[tauntme]

It sure is silly to have the flagship and a ship everyone knows not be the one to come up ahead in an action movie.

Silly indeed! What were the writers thinking?

 

[Pauln6]

It sure is silly to have the flagship and a ship everyone knows not be the one to come up ahead in an action movie.

Silly indeed! What were the writers thinking?

The outcome isn't silly, simply the illogical plot devices used to reach the outcome.

Well, ok, Kirk's promotion to the rank of captain and position in charge of the flagship is still very silly. He should have been promoted to a first officer position and smugly declared he'd be back on the Enterprise in no time. That would have allowed some time to pass between the movies to let the characters catch up with the actors who are all 5-10 years older than their characters already (apart from Pegg and Urban).

They could then have started the next movie with the more experienced crew getting used to their new captain and his command style. If they go for that dynamic in the sequel with no passage of time, we have Saldana (who is 30+) playing someone who is aged 20 and so on. We also have a captain and department heads (apart from Spock and Scotty) who have no experience - equally silly if we're honest.

The alternative, which they may prefer, is to move the timeline forward and have everybody being comfortable together, which would work for me.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The problem was that the had to end up with Kirk as Captain. If it had been planned as a trilogy it could have worked if they showed us the crew at different stages along their journey. But, it was a reboot essentially and a bit of a gamble on the studios part. So, we got everything compressed and Kirk saving Earth much earlier in his career and doing it pretty much single handedly. The rest of the cast had their minor moments, some edging closer to major than others, but all in all it was Kirk all the way.

 

[Pauln6]

The problem was that the had to end up with Kirk as Captain. If it had been planned as a trilogy it could have worked if they showed us the crew at different stages along their journey. But, it was a reboot essentially and a bit of a gamble on the studios part.

I don't understand the logic of saying it HAD to end up with Kirk as Captain. Why could it not end with everybody knowing that Kirk was well and truly on the path to being Captain? Does the modern audience lack the imagination to join the dots? Can the instant gratification generation not cope wth the concept that promotions are earned over time?

If the movie HAD to end with Kirk being a Captain, why not start with him being a brash young officer back at the Acadamy to take the Kobayashi Maru test (for the third time?) instead of a newly graduated cadet? The ages of the characters vary, they didn't all have to be cadets at the same time for the overall plot to work after all. A few tweaks are all that would be required to the plot.

I'd have been happier if the opening scene of the next movie shows his final promotion having been earned. Even if they'd never made the sequel, knowing at the end of the movie that he is on the right path, that he is determined to make his destiny happen, would have been enough for me and far more inspiring than what we actually got (Shatner's scene would have set that up nicely if it had happened actually).

 

[ST-One]

The plot gets sillier and sillier if there are no Warp 9 capable ships anywhere within 200 light years of Earth? That could be half the width of the Federation! Kirk still gambles that he can beat the Narada to Earth in place of a faster ship with no information to support that assumption. We know why they did it but that doesn't make it less silly. I wish they'd been a bit more sensible in their approach.

The Enterprise's long-range communication wasn't functioning. No one, but the Enterprise knew about Nero and the Narada.

So, a plot with a threat that no one (but the Enterprise) knows about and moves towards the Earth and is therefore not intercepted by anyone is silly.
But a plot with a threat everyone in Starfleet knows about but can only be intercepted by one ship, the Enterprise, isn't silly.
That's interesting.

 

[ST-One]

The problem was that the had to end up with Kirk as Captain. If it had been planned as a trilogy it could have worked if they showed us the crew at different stages along their journey. But, it was a reboot essentially and a bit of a gamble on the studios part.

I don't understand the logic of saying it HAD to end up with Kirk as Captain. Why could it not end with everybody knowing that Kirk was well and truly on the path to being Captain? Does the modern audience lack the imagination to join the dots? Can the instant gratification generation not cope wth the concept that promotions are earned over time?

If the movie HAD to end with Kirk being a Captain, why not start with him being a brash young officer back at the Acadamy to take the Kobayashi Maru test (for the third time?) instead of a newly graduated cadet? The ages of the characters vary, they didn't all have to be cadets at the same time for the overall plot to work after all. A few tweaks are all that would be required to the plot.

I'd have been happier if the opening scene of the next movie shows his final promotion having been earned. Even if they'd never made the sequel, knowing at the end of the movie that he is on the right path, that he is determined to make his destiny happen, would have been enough for me and far more inspiring than what we actually got (Shatner's scene would have set that up nicely if it had happened actually).

At least they didn't kill the actual captain of the Enterprise to have Kirk end up in the centre seat this time around...

 

[Pauln6]

The plot gets sillier and sillier if there are no Warp 9 capable ships anywhere within 200 light years of Earth? That could be half the width of the Federation! Kirk still gambles that he can beat the Narada to Earth in place of a faster ship with no information to support that assumption. We know why they did it but that doesn't make it less silly. I wish they'd been a bit more sensible in their approach.

The Enterprise's long-range communication wasn't functioning. No one, but the Enterprise knew about Nero and the Narada.

So, a plot with a threat that no one (but the Enterprise) knows about and moves towards the Earth and is therefore not intercepted by anyone is silly.
But a plot with a threat everyone in Starfleet knows about but can only be intercepted by one ship, the Enterprise, isn't silly.
That's interesting.

Scotty is on a federation base and has a shuttle with a long range transporter. Both of those should have communcations systems. If the shuttle can beam someone about a light year, then they must have long range equipment. Why did nobody use the communcations equipment there? From Spock's perspective, pausing to use or obtain equipment from the base seems more logical than flying all the way out to the fleet and all the way back again.

Further, even long range communication can only travel about 22 light years before it has to be routed through a relay (only slightly longer transit time in Enterprise from Earth to Vulcan). All they have to do is fly to a relay station to send an emergency signal from there. If the fleet is out of range of Vulcan at maximum warp, it would take Spock months or even years to reach them at Warp 4.

 

[ST-One]

Scotty is on a federation base and has a shuttle with a long range transporter. Both of those should have communcations systems. If the shuttle can beam someone about a light year, then they must have long range equipment. Why did nobody use the communcations equipment there?

I don't know.
Perhaps the station, because it's so close to Vulcan, doesn't have any long-range comm equipment either.

Further, even long range communication can only travel about 22 light years before it has to be routed through a relay (only slightly longer transit time in Enterprise from Earth to Vulcan). All they have to do is fly to a relay station to send an emergency signal from there. If the fleet is out of range of Vulcan at maximum warp, it would take Spock months or even years to reach them at Warp 4.

 

[kkozoriz1]

So Scotty only has local phone service, not long distance?

And why did Scotty beam to the Enterprise with Kirk, abandoning his post? Why? Because the Enterprise needed a new Chief Engineer and apparently none of the people assigned to her were good enough. So, Scotty had to come along for the ride.

When you're doing a coming together story, having every connection based on a coincidence it weakens the story telling. Kirk on;y has to make the decision that takes him to the next coincidence in order for the story to progress.

 

[ST-One]

So Scotty only has local phone service, not long distance?

Apparently.

And why did Scotty beam to the Enterprise with Kirk, abandoning his post? Why? Because the Enterprise needed a new Chief Engineer and apparently none of the people assigned to her were good enough. So, Scotty had to come along for the ride.

Like McCoy, who had retired from the Starfleet but whom Kirk needed 'badly'? Why? Because Dr. Chapel wasn't good enough?
Or Spock, who only tagged along because he (and apparently only he) had made a connection to V'Ger and only he (although not an engineer) was able to repair that engine imbalance? What's that Scotty good for?

 

[6079SmithW]

If the movie HAD to end with Kirk being a Captain, why not start with him being a brash young officer back at the Acadamy to take the Kobayashi Maru test (for the third time?) instead of a newly graduated cadet?

He was a brash young officer taking the test and not a newly graduated cadet. He was a full Lieutenant as is established by the transporter display when he is free falling with Sulu. He didn't go from cadet to Captain as so many claim. He went from Lieutenant to Captain, skipping two ranks and not five.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If the movie HAD to end with Kirk being a Captain, why not start with him being a brash young officer back at the Acadamy to take the Kobayashi Maru test (for the third time?) instead of a newly graduated cadet?

He was a brash young officer taking the test and not a newly graduated cadet. He was a full Lieutenant as is established by the transporter display when he is free falling with Sulu. He didn't go from cadet to Captain as so many claim. He went from Lieutenant to Captain, skipping two ranks and not five.

He, like Kirk Prime and Saavik, was a Lieutenant while still a cadet. So he did go from cadet to Captain. Granted, he only skipped two grades but that's way more than enough.

 

[kkozoriz1]

And why did Scotty beam to the Enterprise with Kirk, abandoning his post? Why? Because the Enterprise needed a new Chief Engineer and apparently none of the people assigned to her were good enough. So, Scotty had to come along for the ride.

Like McCoy, who had retired from the Starfleet but whom Kirk needed 'badly'? Why? Because Dr. Chapel wasn't good enough?
Or Spock, who only tagged along because he (and apparently only he) had made a connection to V'Ger and only he (although not an engineer) was able to repair that engine imbalance? What's that Scotty good for?

Kirk needed McCoy personally, not professionally. HE needed McCoy, not the ship or the mission, Kirk needed him as a friend and advisor. Kirk Prime recognized this. We haven't seen NuKirk as needing anyone yet.

The question is WHY did Scotty tag along? He's AWOL from his assigned station. There was no reason given in the movie, he just tagged along.

Spock made the connection with V'Ger telepathically. He had his own reasons for seeking it out. As McCoy said, he was lucky that they were going his way.

Spcok is shown working in engineering with Scotty and the rest of the crew. He didn't fix the warp drive by himself, he added his formidable talent to what was already there.

 

[Neutral Zone]

I think Scotty was bought into the film was to give some story of how he became a part of the team. A good part of XI was focused on intro's of how regular supposedly met in the early days. Can't see how that worked in the writers minds as this was an alternate reality and the odds are that some or none of them actually came into contact with each other.

 

[6079SmithW]

Another thing with the command crew. From what we've seen in star trek the captain gets to personally pick their department heads. We see Kirk accept Spock as XO and he likely requested that McCoy be his CMO and that Scotty be his Chief Engineer. Same goes for Sulu as main helmsmen (since he was a backup for McKenna).