Weird promotion practices

[Pauln6]

Once again, the internal logic of the movie doesn't hold together all that well. Kirk was insubordinate and disobeyed direct orders on a number of occasions. He may well have deserved a commendation for original thinking (per TWoK), he may have deserved a commendation or medal of valour for his actions in saving the Earth, and he may have deserved a promotion. However, he also deserved at least one reprimand and definintely lacks the experience and self-discilpne to be in charge of an entire ship. Lets not forget, Olsen leaped before he looked and look what happened to him. Kirk needs more than that to be a good captain.

NuSpock doesn't display TOS Spock's reluctance to command. He is a higher rank at a much younger age (Commander at 26 instead of 36) and a first officer. Spock should really have been a lieutenant to Number One's Lieutnenant commander, catapaulted to command by her death or incapacitation due to injury (the latter would be better since we already have the death of the CMO as a method of promoting McCoy). This way he still receives a promotion to first officer at the end and it looks less like he has been shafted by Starfleet. I agree though, his lack of promotion is probably due to a desire to resign from Starfleet and his decision to sign on as Kirk's subordinate was probably due to Spock Prime's intervention.

If they had made Spock lower rank it would indeed not have been necessary for Kirk to be a full captain. However, it's almost a certainty that he would not have been awarded the Enterprise. Personally, I would have found it more satisfying if Kirk had been given command of a smaller vessel and finished the film with a traditionally cocky boast that he'd be back on the Enterprise before they knew it. Hell it could even have opened up the possibility of a tv series about his early career on the smaller ship with some new characters (I'm not such a purist that I couldn't cope with Kirk being re-cast for TV but whatever).

 

[UFO]

I wouldn't call Kirk's actions mutiny. He was being insubordinate to Spock and did attack his guards but was not trying to incite rebellion. He probably would have gotten a reprimand too but it was probably waved because Earth needed a hero after the loss of Vulcan. Basically what UssGlenn said.

Granted he didn’t try to appeal to others to join his rebellion but it seemed more than being insubordinate to Spock. He was trying to force his will on the command of the Enterprise. If it was irrational or not well thought out that’s because he appeared to "lose it" just as much as Spock did later. His actions here weren't exactly deliberate and if they ultimately contributed to solving the situation it was only by an incredible (to be generous) stroke of luck. Had he succeeded in his goal, we were lead to believe, he would have got everyone killed. Of course later that view is unexpectedly discredited when the Enterprise shoots down everything the Narada could throw at the Jellyfish! But that's another story.

And there is a difference between being insubordinate and insulting/yelling at your CO and physically assaulting another officer.

I would think insubordination, under the circumstances (when the Federation is "at war" with Nero) is potentially far worst than physically assaulting another officer. Especially as Kirk is the person who provoked Spock’s attack in the first place rather than supporting his captain. We can’t even argue Kirk had to do it to save the Earth. If Spock had known about trans warp beaming he would have at least lobbed a few photon torpedos aboard the Narada if not a boarding party. Pike would have to be considered expendable if his recovery risked the main mission.

So, in summery, Spock made (or would have made, given the chance) the right decisions and Kirk got impossibly lucky (repeatedly).

By the way, if you want a gutsy move, don't destroy Vulcan. Leave Spock in command of the Enterprise!

 

[Pauln6]

See, I don't think that anything about Kirk's performance suggested he was captain material yet - in some respects, quite the opposite. He can inspire loyalty but he also struggles with being a team player (although in later TOS episodes that became TOS *cough* *Shatner* *cough* Kirk's flaw too). Remember how horrified he was when M5 suggested that he was superfluous to the mission - his ego could have imploded like so much red matter - but I digress.

Kirk's basic plan wasn't so bad (if we ignore the fact that it would take days to reach Earth at Warp 4 and that they had no evidence to suggest that the Narada couldn't beat them there by a mile and the probability that the Narada would approach Earth's system with her shields raised). But his apparent decision to beam across on his own was absolutely ludicrous - Spock volunteered to help even though Kirk must have know that he was essential to the success of the mission. I would have thought a security team and someone who can speak Romulan (properly as opposed to guessing due to similarities with the Vulcan language) would have been important to the success of the mission. There are at least four occasions where having some back up would have helped. I realise that the writers want to showcase the heroes' qualities but they can do that even if the ensemble gets to help. Instead what they are saying is that Kirk adopts the Troi method of command where he craves the action so much that he increases the chance of the mission failing by insisting on doing things himself. That definitely isn't good leadership. It was why Troi failed that rather silly command test.

 

[Leathco]

The only explanation is that Starfleet doesn't want to promote Spock further because they are racist against Vulcans for holding back Henry Archers Warp 5 engine.

(yes, I'm just playing around)

 

[F. King Daniel]

The reason Spock wasn't offered a command could be that Spock was a lousy captain, and his robotic following of orders (meet up with the rest of the fleet) would have assured Earth's demise. As we saw in "The Galileo Seven", TOS Spock didn't have a clue about command either - and he hadn't just lost his whole world. Severe emotional trauma aside, would you want someone not willing to even try to save Earth commanding a front line ship?

 

[kkozoriz1]

I doubt Spock was going to meet up with the rest of the fleet so they could have a picnic. Who said anything about Starfleet not even trying to save Earth?

 

[F. King Daniel]

The fleet wouldn't have made it to Earth in time stop Nero, but the Enterprise still could. That's why Kirk took command.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Being late or going about something the wrong way is a lot different that being unwilling to save Earth. Besides, the entire plot was assembled around the premise that only Kirk was right. Everyone else had to be wrong.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Really? Spock Prime was right, Kirk was the man to save the day. Captain Pike was right to recruit Kirk and put him in a position of authority. McCoy was right (recall his chat with Spock after Kirk's sent to Delta Vega). They were all right about Kirk, who was indeed right himself

Who was wrong, other than Young Spock? Sulu, for leaving the parking brake on?

I'd hardly call that "everyone".

 

[kkozoriz1]

Spock Prime was speaking of Kirk in general. he didn't even know this one. Since he concluded he was in a different universe Kirk could have been a mass murderer for all he knew. Pike based his opinion of Kirk on what exactly? A few test scores that showed he was a genius? McCoy snuck Kirk onto the ship for no reason. It was all about making Kirk out to be the only way that anything would work out.

Kirk was a stowaway and got appointed as first officer for gawds sake. He wasn't authorized to be on the ship.

 

[UFO]

The reason Spock wasn't offered a command could be that Spock was a lousy captain, and his robotic following of orders (meet up with the rest of the fleet) would have assured Earth's demise.

That was the situation Spock was presented with. Unlike Kirk he didn't have the opportunity of rigging the "test". It was a hard decision but everything in the movie to that point indicated facing the Narada head on was an impossible fight (the Narada destroyed 47 Klingon ships and seven or so Federation vessels!), a point Kirk himself later admits to Chekov. Throwing away the Enterprise and its knowledge of Nero would have been the wrong decision. Kirk never presented Spock with a plan to over come that. Nobody did until they had that long range beaming "equation". Instead Kirk's reaction was a mental and physical explosion. His eventual success doesn't prove that Spock, at that point, was wrong and of course its much easier to be "right" when the whole universe is stopping you from stuffing up until a good opportunity presents itself.

As I pointed out, Kirk wasn't so much right, as "impossibly" lucky.

By the way, if Spock's agreeing with Pike was wrong, then Pike's decision making is questionable and so are his decisions regarding Kirk.

As we saw in "The Galileo Seven", TOS Spock didn't have a clue about command either - and he hadn't just lost his whole world.

Yes, it was rather ridiculous in that regard. I don't see how Spock could go from being "the best first officer in the fleet" to someone who was a hopeless commander in the space of one episode! Its not as though being a first officer never requires good command skills.

Severe emotional trauma aside, would you want someone not willing to even try to save Earth commanding a front line ship?

Kirk had Chekov coming up with ideas about how to use Scotty's equation. By contrast Spock had none of that support and no rabbits pulled out of hats. You have to have a plan with some chance of success. The writers wrote Spock into that corner. He just made the hard but correct decision. And yes, I would rather have someone like that in command that a hothead who would lose the ship ten times before breakfast.

The fleet wouldn't have made it to Earth in time stop Nero, but the Enterprise still could. That's why Kirk took command.

Kirk underhandedly took command because he had to be in the the captain's seat by the end of the movie. A good first officer would have been loyal to his captain and informed Spock of vital new information that would have allowed him to take on the Narada with a reasonable chance of success. If Spock was emotionally compromised, it wasn't obvious from his decision making. Well, apart from going out with a cadet of course.

Really? Spock Prime was right ...

I wouldn't call helping Kirk needlessly steal NuSpock's captaincy "right". In fact it would appear Spock was his own worst enemy! There is no evidence that NuSpock wouldn't have gone after Nero given what Kirk knew from visiting Delta Vega.

The whole emotionally compromised business was just a poorly disguised excuse for perpetrating another of the more morally questionable actions in the movie, in my view.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Being late or going about something the wrong way is a lot different that being unwilling to save Earth.

It is if you get there after the Earth is destroyed, and yeah they probably would have remeber the fleet was far away and we don't know what they were doing, it could have been something that would take a while and they couldn't just drop.

There is no evidence that NuSpock wouldn't have gone after Nero given what Kirk knew from visiting Delta Vega.

Not when Spock Prime convinced him telling him would be really bad.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Again, setting things up so that the only one who can do anything is Kirk.

 

[UFO]

There is no evidence that NuSpock wouldn't have gone after Nero given what Kirk knew from visiting Delta Vega.

Not when Spock Prime convinced him telling him would be really bad.

That's true, Kirk did buy into SP's (i.e. the writer's) predictions of doom and gloom if NS found out about SP. But there was no need to mention SP.

Kirk could have just told NuSpock the equation was something Scotty came up with on this own, which is not far from the truth. Any movie that has Spock lying to Kirk for no good in-film reason, but simply to do the writers bidding, needed a rewrite it didn't get far as I'm concerned

Again, setting things up so that the only one who can do anything is Kirk.

Yes, the padding's very thin in too many places.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again, setting things up so that the only one who can do anything is Kirk.

The hero of the action movie saves the day? Shocking.

 

[Trekker4747]

Keep in mind there's a difference between "captain" (the commanding officer of a ship) and "Captain" (an official rank.)

Even in the present-day modern navy Lt.Cmdrs are captains of ships.

 

[Pauln6]

The reason Spock wasn't offered a command could be that Spock was a lousy captain, and his robotic following of orders (meet up with the rest of the fleet) would have assured Earth's demise.

That was the situation Spock was presented with. Unlike Kirk he didn't have the opportunity of rigging the "test". It was a hard decision but everything in the movie to that point indicated facing the Narada head on was an impossible fight (the Narada destroyed 47 Klingon ships and seven or so Federation vessels!), a point Kirk himself later admits to Chekov. Throwing away the Enterprise and its knowledge of Nero would have been the wrong decision. Kirk never presented Spock with a plan to over come that. Nobody did until they had that long range beaming "equation". Instead Kirk's reaction was a mental and physical explosion. His eventual success doesn't prove that Spock, at that point, was wrong and of course its much easier to be "right" when the whole universe is stopping you from stuffing up until a good opportunity presents itself.

As I pointed out, Kirk wasn't so much right, as "impossibly" lucky.

The fleet wouldn't have made it to Earth in time stop Nero, but the Enterprise still could. That's why Kirk took command.

Kirk underhandedly took command because he had to be in the the captain's seat by the end of the movie. A good first officer would have been loyal to his captain and informed Spock of vital new information that would have allowed him to take on the Narada with a reasonable chance of success. If Spock was emotionally compromised, it wasn't obvious from his decision making. Well, apart from going out with a cadet of course.

The whole emotionally compromised business was just a poorly disguised excuse for perpetrating another of the more morally questionable actions in the movie, in my view.

I agree that Spock's decision to rendevous with the fleet was correct based on the information he had at the time.

I'm also far from convinced that the fleet or some other vessel couldn't have reached Earth in time to stop Nero or even that the Enterprise could travel to Earth in time to stop Nero. Even using the faster TNG warp speeds, it would take about 60 days to reach Earth from Vulcan at Warp 4. Vessels travelling at Warp 9 can travel 250 light years in that time or about 109 light years averaging at Warp 7. I mean how likely is it that there are NO starships at all anywhere in the Federation who can't get to Earth sooner than Enterprise? I mean how big was the Federation anyway inthis era?

Kirk's decision not to pass on the information to other Federation vessels to hog the glory himself is what I was talking about - his style is why Troi failed the commander's test. He really isn't a great captain just, as you say, impossibly lucky.

In his defence it was only the writers' ill-advised decision to state that the Enterprise's speed was so limited that make this element of the plot so dumb. And don't get me started on long-distance beaming...

 

[F. King Daniel]

^You're not calculating journey times based on those worthless warp speed charts from the technical manuals, are you? They've never had anything to do with the warp speeds in the show, which have always been totally random, from TOS through to STXI and everything in between.

 

[BillJ]

Even in the present-day modern navy Lt.Cmdrs are captains of ships.

I doubt they command aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines though, which is what the Enterprise would be the equivalent of. There is a progression, things that you need to do, before being ready to command a vessel that has the stature of the Enterprise. Kirk in the new timeline didn't do any of those things.

Kirk isn't ready for command, even in Pike's own words...

PIKE: If you're half the man your father was Jim, Starfleet could use you. You could be an officer in four years. You could have your own ship in eight.

I'm sure there are lots of young hotshots that come through the Academy who had to wait for commands based on the fact that there are certain steps you have to go through before being ready. I just find it weird that Starfleet would put an undertrained, insubordinate kid in the center seat of what is, essentially, a floating "Weapons of Mass Destruction" platform.

It just violates common sense.

If they had truly mined the Original Series for all it was worth, they could have came up with a more believable scenario.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Part of the problem is that Kirk and Pike are the only ones who got rewarded. None of the other characters got promoted. Pike was made an Admiral and he was captured almost as soon as the Enterprise arrived and had nothing to do once he was rescued. Spock wasn't even offered the First Officer position. He had to go ask Kirk for it like Oliver Twist asking for more gruel.