We do not discuss it with outsiders!

[Myasishchev]

Probably humans would try to hide their weakness for their guilty pleasures (those that completely waste time and are utterly unproductive, but fun), like reading fanfic, watching video, playing on media forums.... Does the Enterprise have a BBS?

In Duane's work, it does, and it's pretty fun.

I do wonder, whatever happened to the Internet in Star Trek?

 

[Joshua Howard]

Does the Enterprise have a BBS?

The BBS is accessable via desktop viewscreens, such as the one in Picard's ready room. This explains why he often turns off his screen when someone enters the room.

 

[Myasishchev]

According to the original wording, male Pon Farr is supposedly an urge to find a mate, not an urge to have sex. The ENT "Bounty" female Pon Farr seems to have similar symptoms, except females proceed by desperately wooing random mates. Or then only unbonded females do that. At least some Vulcans are telepathically bonded to future mates, although inevitably at least some aren't - widowers, for example, but no doubt also a few nontraditionalists. The nonbonded ones still supposedly undergo Pon Farr, and the widowers eventually may find new mates. But what happens to the bonds afterwards?

It would be quite natural and consistent to assume that (the male) getting out of Pon Farr alive and well and satisfied hinges on consummating the telepathic bond specifically, and that any physical sex or violence is incidental. This is why Tuvok would have so much trouble when stranded in the Delta Quadrant, away from his telepathically bonded wife; no amount of medication or ersatz wives could ever satisfy him.

The bond would be broken in death, or in circumstances of duress such as Spock's "Amok Time" misadventure. It would probably also be harder to break after some time (and further Pon Farrs) had passed.

Now, why this rambling? Because if the above is true, Sarek might well be in a unique position among Vulcan males: being bonded with a non-telepathic wife (twice in a row!) would probably free him from the woes that nearly did Tuvok in...

To be sure, we don't really know whether Vulcan widowers ever remarry telepathically. Perhaps Sarek could never again take a wife after losing Sybok's mother, but could take substitutes, such as human females. Perhaps Spock is similarly hobbled/liberated after breaking up with T'Pring? Perhaps Pon Farr even goes away, once a mate is found and is telepathically present when the next Pon Farr would otherwise be triggered?

Amanda never confirmed that the seven-year cycle would still have an effect on their married life in "Journey to Babel", and the later appearances of Sarek didn't refer to this, either. Even in "Cloud Minders", Spock only admits that the seven-year cycle applies to mate-taking, with no mention whether it would persist once a mate is found.

Many ways to hide the intricacies of Vulcan sex life from the general public, then: an obvious one would be to only send out widowers to interact with aliens. Or people between their Pon Farrs.

Timo Saloniemi

At an institutional, formal level, maybe--but it still assumes that a species of billions will all fall in line with an arbitrary, illogical, and shame-based stricture that surely would be met with some opposition, if not mere accidental violation.

I mean, take Iran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI --check out the reaction to Ahmadinejad saying that homosexuality doesn't exist in Iran. Iran can say homosexuality doesn't exist all day, and they can send only heterosexuals abroad, and they can kill anyone who disagrees--but we're pretty sure that the population of Iran is not 100% into the opposite sex. And we are rightfully dismissive of Iran's insane adherence to this laughable, pitiable fiction.

 

[DevilEyes]

("Why does Sarek leave every seven years? Why doesn't he take his wife?" ).

1) Leave to where? Why would he "leave" anywhere?

2) Surely, he would need his wife more than ever during Pon Farr.

And when my girlfriend ovulates, she always goes for the family cat... who would be about a billion times more related than Amanda is to Sarek. As I've said before, if that's all pon farr requires (which perfidious Voyager does seem to imply <_< ), then Spock should be taken out and shot for his mutinous activities in "Amok Time."

Plus, Sarek did have a previous wife (and by the rules of Amok Time, had one from shortly after birth), although I don't recall from Trek 5 whether it's known if this marriage had been dissolved prior to his appointment as an ambassador, or even if it had ever dissolved.

I suppose he need not leave for Vulcan ("as the salmon" etc.) if the concentration of available females on Earth, or wherever his assignment was during his early years, was high enough.

So your girlfriend is married to your family cat and has a child with it?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Unless you have a strange idea that Vulcans only have to mate with Vulcan during Pon Farr, which is unsupported by anything we ever saw in Star Trek, and has been flat out contradicted several times (starting with "Amok Time", where Spock obviously contemplates having sex with Chapel and tries to propose it to her, but she doesn't understand, apparently). Why would you think that? And does that mean that you believe that Sarek goes off every 7 years to cheat on his wife with... who? A Vulcan prostitute? A regular (once in 7 years) mistress? One of the Vulcan ambassador groupies?

 

[KimMH]

Hey! Where can I sign up to be a Vulcan groupie? Or do I have to be an actual Vulcan for that? dang.

 

[Myasishchev]

1) Leave to where? Why would he "leave" anywhere?

2) Surely, he would need his wife more than ever during Pon Farr.

And when my girlfriend ovulates, she always goes for the family cat... who would be about a billion times more related than Amanda is to Sarek. As I've said before, if that's all pon farr requires (which perfidious Voyager does seem to imply <_< ), then Spock should be taken out and shot for his mutinous activities in "Amok Time."

Plus, Sarek did have a previous wife (and by the rules of Amok Time, had one from shortly after birth), although I don't recall from Trek 5 whether it's known if this marriage had been dissolved prior to his appointment as an ambassador, or even if it had ever dissolved.

I suppose he need not leave for Vulcan ("as the salmon" etc.) if the concentration of available females on Earth, or wherever his assignment was during his early years, was high enough.

So your girlfriend is married to your family cat and has a child with it?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say

No--that was argument ad absurdum. Why would a mating drive that is expressly stated as requiring a Vulcan be satisfied by some totally unrelated thing like a human?

Unless you have a strange idea that Vulcans only have to mate with Vulcan during Pon Farr,

The strange idea that most animals tend to have conspecific sex and conspecific sex drives? I'm pretty sure natural selection would weed out those with heterospecific tendencies pretty rapidly, seeing as how the former produces children and the latter produces messes.

Among sapient creatures, sure, there is bound to be some bending of this rules. Even today, we've ensured that virtually anyone can carry on their genetic line and for humans, sexuality is basically for fun. All we're missing are sapient creatures that the majority of us would find remotely sexually attractive. The likelihood of a (real) sapient alien being attractive is really pretty small, but I can live with Trek's production realities and dramatic preferences in this case.

which is unsupported by anything we ever saw in Star Trek, and has been flat out contradicted several times (starting with "Amok Time", where Spock obviously contemplates having sex with Chapel and tries to propose it to her, but she doesn't understand, apparently).

That's not my reading of that scene at all. My reading is he contemplates it, realizes it would be totally ineffective and would only add unnecessary complications to an already terrible situation.

Can Spock really be forgiven if he was simply randy, and not faced with a potentially fatal medical emergency that could not be solved aboard the Enterprise by an apparently willing participant and medical professional? When Spock gets that feeling, does he notneed sexual healing?

Or does he just need a real doll? For biological purposes, Christine Chapel is a real doll. Worse, actually, she's a real doll with feelings, but without any of the pheromonal/hormonal/telepathic/whatever traits that apparently trigger the end of the pon farr cycle.

Why would you think that? And does that mean that you believe that Sarek goes off every 7 years to cheat on his wife with... who?

I think the term "cheating" implies a value judgment that they might not share. Indeed, if a seven-year cycle is a virility cycle, there would be an irresistible selection pressure for polyandrous females, and this is my explanation for Tuvok's kids.

A Vulcan prostitute?

"You don't have money in the future?"
"Well, we don't!"

A regular (once in 7 years) mistress? One of the Vulcan ambassador groupies?

How do animals ordinarily choose their mates? Choice and compromise with healthy dashes of hope and luck. I'd assume the Vulcans would do it logically, with well-prepared plans. Maybe if Spock and Sarek hadn't cut contact for over a decade, he could've given him some pointers about dealing with the situation that didn't involve mutiny or killing his friend.

 

[DevilEyes]

No--that was argument ad absurdum. Why would a mating drive that is expressly stated as requiring a Vulcan be satisfied by some totally unrelated thing like a human?

<snip>

Expressly stated?! By whom? Only by you. It's never been stated, expressly or not, in any live action Star Trek series or movie (I wouldn't know if someone stated in some book, and I am not interested), and it has been flat out contradicted, since it has been established that Vulcans believe their Pon Farr drive can be satisfied by a human, or a Klingon/Human.

"Some totally unrelated thing like a human"?! Don't be ridiculous. In the Star Trek universe, the one from the TV series and movies, Vulcans and humans are very related, so much that they can have children.

Fact: in Star Trek, it is allowed and perfectly OK for a Vulcan and a human to marry.

Fact: in Star Trek, Vulcans and humans can, and do, have sex. It is 99.999999% likely that Vulcans have the same reproductive organs as humans and are physically compatible with them.

Fact: in Star Trek , Vulcans and humans can, and do, have healthy children together.


These are the facts. Whether you like them or not, makes no difference.

If you are going to launch into a diatribe about different species not being able to mate and so on, well, I'm sorry, but you're talking about some other Star Trek franchise that you would like to exist, not the one that actually does exist.

And when you do make your own Star Trek, the one in which Vulcans and Humans really are completely unrelated species, please make them really different, OK? Not people who look and act almost completely human, except that they have pointy ears and that we're told that their blood is green.

 

[Myasishchev]

Devil, I'll go ahead and respond, but I don't want this to get too adversarial. I apologize if I have seemed belligerent or too sarcastic--just trying to inject some fun into what could be a dry conversation. : /

Expressly stated?! By whom? Only by you.

We are driven by forces we cannot control, to return home, to take a wife--or die.

Pretty explicit to my mind.

However, I'll concede that earlier during this very excellently-done scene, Spock mentions that "outworlders" may not know of it, except "those few who have been involved." This could be interpreted to say what I've been saying, that Amanda's well aware of the severity of the seven-year itch and Sarek fully briefed her on what this would entail--but it could reasonably be interpreted to mean that "outworlders" could get in on the action, which would reinforce your point of view.

However, the quoted extract is pretty clear, to me, that Spock must return home to have a wife. It is equally clear that the meaning of "home" is not literal, anymore than "take a wife" literally means "go down to the probate court and apply for a marriage license." Indeed, if it meant Vulcan-the-planet, Romulans could not exist. It certainly, however, means a place where a biologically Vulcan mate can be attained. In Spock's case, the easiest place to find a Vulcan mate is on Vulcan, where, in order to alleviate the social dislocations pon farr definitely occasions, he has been arranged to "take a wife" in the form of T'Pring.

It's also implicitly said that Spock doesn't care about the charms of humans. This is something I just noticed from watching a bit of the episode: remarkably, for someone who is dying for sex, Nimoy has Spock ignore the cornucopia of hot, miniskirted human women milling about the crowded Enterprise halls. I think that was quite the nice touch, intended or not.

It's never been stated, expressly or not, in any live action Star Trek series or movie (I wouldn't know if someone stated in some book, and I am not interested), and it has been flat out contradicted, since it has been established that Vulcans believe their Pon Farr drive can be satisfied by a human, or a Klingon/Human.

In what? That Voyager episode? That's explicable, painful as it may be, under this framework. Tom Paris (ugh) successfully duplicated whatever the chemical or whatever signals that would ordinarily accompany a consummation of pon farr. Gross and utterly undramatic and better-off-ignored, but the alternative still remains that.

There might be an Enterprise episode that totally contradicts me. I have no idea.

In the absence of a need to return to Vulcan for the purpose of bedding his Vulcan wife, then Spock has to be the most incompetent, self-centered person to ever wear a Starfleet uniform, who disobeyed orders for a purely selfish, not even vital purpose. I believe that this, at least, is not the case--although he seems quite the tool for hoping it would not happen to him.

Fact: in Star Trek, it is allowed and perfectly OK for a Vulcan and a human to marry.

What consenting adults do is none of my business.

I'm interested in what you think the hypothetical model for pon farr should be.

Fact: in Star Trek, Vulcans and humans can, and do, have sex. It is 99.999999% likely that Vulcans have the same reproductive organs as humans and are physically compatible with them.

Do they? When? Maybe in that Sasha Grey movie, but I don't think that's canon. Okay, yeah, in Enterprise, Trip and T'Pol have sex. But they have no natural offspring; their kid from "Terra Prime" is a lab-made monstrosity. The only direct indication that they are reproductively compatible is the bare fact that Spock exists. This compatiblility is an interpretation of fact--and not everyone, indeed maybe not even a majority, has accepted this interpretation.

Fact: in Star Trek , Vulcans and humans can, and do, have healthy children together.

Who interestingly appear to be absolutely, 100% morphologically Vulcan--for what it's worth.

These are the facts. Whether you like them or not, makes no difference.

I like most of 'em fine and can stipulate to the fact that Vulcans and humans get it on. What consenting, fictional adults do is not my business.

And when you do make your own Star Trek, the one in which Vulcans and Humans really are completely unrelated species, please make them really different, OK? Not people who look and act almost completely human, except that they have pointy ears and that we're told that their blood is green.

Hey, in my mind, "The Chase" just tells everybody that Salome Jens was responsible for nothing more (or less!) profound than the near-universal triumph of DNA and the right-handed chirality of proteins...

 

[DevilEyes]

So basically you confirm that there are plenty of things in Trek which flat-out contradict your views, but you choose to ignore them (let's forget about "The Chase", let's ignore Voyager "Blood Fever", let's ignore Trip and T'Pol having sex on ENT but we'll still remember that they couldn't conceive naturally... selective memory is a great way to argue for one's views...), and nothing to support it but your speculation and interpretation of certain lines.

Did Spock in "Amok Time" ever express the desire to have sex with any other Vulcan? Why T'Pring? If he specifically needs a Vulcan, why not look for some other Vulcan woman? The episode makes it clear that he wants to go back to T'Pring, not just to Vulcan, and it is because they were betrothed and telepathically linked (even though the latter obviously is not a absolute assurance, or T'Pring would have felt the same as Spock and would not have hooked up with Stonn). If a Vulcan feels the need to be with a mate (not that it's necessary - The Search for Spock makes it clear that, if no telepathically linked mate exists, a random person you're not telepathically linked to can work just fine), well, Sarek has his mater: is married to Amanda, and most likely telepathically linked with her as his mate (why wouldn't he be? We know that Vulcans can mind meld with Humans, and just about everyone and everything else, establish telepathic link and transfer their feelings and thoughts and even psychophysical states to others, and vice versa).

And please, you're not going to argue that Vulcans and Humans never had sex in TOS? What was Spock doing with Leila or Zarabeth (the latter might not have been from Earth, but looked 100% human)? And you're not really suggesting that Amanda and Sarek have a platonic relationship that they've crowned with an artifically conceived baby?

We also know that humans can have sex with Cardassians and Betazoids among others, that Klingons can have sex with Trills, that Cardassians can not only have sex with the Bajorans and the Kazon but also naturally conceive healthy children... So why are you insisting on this, in face of so much evidence to the contrary? If you don't like the biological rules of Star Trek, you can always try to write your own show, not try to deny what we've seen on screen. Claiming that it doesn't make sense scientifically changes nothing - lots of things in Trek don't make sense scientifically, but they still happened in the actual shows/movies.

You might as well argue that Kirk never had sex with anyone ever - we never saw in on screen, right? - and that he was just a sperm donor for Carol Marcus' in vitro baby.

Who interestingly appear to be absolutely, 100% morphologically Vulcan--for what it's worth.

What is the significance of that, even if it were true?

And is it even true? Yeah, Spock has pointy ears. So? Some other Vulcan/Human hybrid might get a different combination of genes and have human-like ears. The obvious outisde physical differences between the Vulcans and the Humans are too small, anyway.

Most importantly, we were told explicitly in "Journey to Babel" that Spock's blood (the biggest difference we have been made aware of) has human characteristics - it is not 100% Vulcan.

 

[Deckerd]

What would humans have to hide from the rest of the galaxy? What would be our shame.

Television.

 

[barnaclelapse]

I'm getting sick of people who know I dig Trek asking me as though I wrote the fucking series.

The solution to your problem is to act as though you did write the fucking series. Become an in-your-face jerk about your knowledge to Trek. Hoard it over them. Always point out that you know more about Trek than they do. Always insert some trivial fact into any conversation, especially if it's not important. Mock them for being peasants as demonstrated by their lack of Trek knowledge, by referring to it as the "essentials of life." Walk around as though you're in a bad mood. If someone asks what's wrong, start bitching about something you don't like in Trek, like the Kelvin's registry or something.

People will quickly learn to stop bugging you about Trek as though you "wrote the fucking series."

Can I be drunk the whole time?

 

[KimMH]

^^^ booze and Star Trek - some of my favorite weekend pastimes! WIN!

 

[Myasishchev]

So basically you confirm that there are plenty of things in Trek which flat-out contradict your views, but you choose to ignore them (let's forget about "The Chase", let's ignore Voyager "Blood Fever", let's ignore Trip and T'Pol having sex on ENT but we'll still remember that they couldn't conceive naturally... selective memory is a great way to argue for one's views...), and nothing to support it but your speculation and interpretation of certain lines.

Did Spock in "Amok Time" ever express the desire to have sex with any other Vulcan? Why T'Pring? If he specifically needs a Vulcan, why not look for some other Vulcan woman? The episode makes it clear that he wants to go back to T'Pring, not just to Vulcan, and it is because they were betrothed and telepathically linked (even though the latter obviously is not a absolute assurance, or T'Pring would have felt the same as Spock and would not have hooked up with Stonn). If a Vulcan feels the need to be with a mate (not that it's necessary - The Search for Spock makes it clear that, if no telepathically linked mate exists, a random person you're not telepathically linked to can work just fine), well, Sarek has his mater: is married to Amanda, and most likely telepathically linked with her as his mate (why wouldn't he be? We know that Vulcans can mind meld with Humans, and just about everyone and everything else, establish telepathic link and transfer their feelings and thoughts and even psychophysical states to others, and vice versa).

And please, you're not going to argue that Vulcans and Humans never had sex in TOS? What was Spock doing with Leila or Zarabeth (the latter might not have been from Earth, but looked 100% human)?

They might have went at it like rabbits. Two different species of rabbits that never had chil'rin'.

And you're not really suggesting that Amanda and Sarek have a platonic relationship that they've crowned with an artifically conceived baby?

Diane Duane did, and she's not generally considered stupid. I think it's very reasonable to state that there is a presumption--a very strong presumption rebuttable only by the clearest and most convincing evidence--that two different species from entirely different phylogenetic trees that diverged, even taking into account "The Chase," four billion years ago, should not be able to naturally procreate. Maybe I'm just weird.

We also know that humans can have sex with Cardassians and Betazoids among others, that Klingons can have sex with Trills, that Cardassians can not only have sex with the Bajorans and the Kazon but also naturally conceive healthy children...

I'm unfamiliar with a Kazon/Cardie... some episode with Seska, I guess?

Like I said, I am willing to suspend disbelief enough to assume convergent evolution on humanoid genitals. That's problematic in itself (look at the bewildering variation on Earth!) but not self-evidently wrong. Genitals as we know them evolved in the general fashion they did for a reason, and are therefore probably a universal adaptation to a universal problem. For the same reason I have no problem with Vulcan having flying raptors or predatory teddy-bear-cat-things, I have no problem with the general notion that humanoid males have wangs of the same general type.

So why are you insisting on this, in face of so much evidence to the contrary?

Because the evidence is contradictory, and when that happens the most reliable evidence is preferred, as is the most reasonable interpretation. I hope you're not getting upset because we don't see eye-to-eye on this issue...

If you don't like the biological rules of Star Trek, you can always try to write your own show, not try to deny what we've seen on screen.

This sort of approach will quickly reach the limits of logic--in a franchise as sprawling as Trek, there are going to be times where one thing flatly contradicts another, and you're going to have to choose which one is more reliable and move on from there.

Claiming that it doesn't make sense scientifically changes nothing - lots of things in Trek don't make sense scientifically, but they still happened in the actual shows/movies.

Sure. But that doesn't mean I ought not criticize it when they get something so disastrously wrong it ruins what came before and after--are "Threshold" and "Dear Doctor" immune from being called stupid because they have a Trek name on it? Even Brannon Braga, king of stupid, admits "Threshold" is void for its sins.

You might as well argue that Kirk never had sex with anyone ever - we never saw in on screen, right? - and that he was just a sperm donor for Carol Marcus' in vitro baby.

It would explain why Carol never told him.

Who interestingly appear to be absolutely, 100% morphologically Vulcan--for what it's worth.

What is the significance of that, even if it were true?

All speculation, to be sure. But a copper (hemocyanin?) blooded Vulcan fetus is going to be at a disadvantage in the womb of an iron (hemoglobin) blooded human.

If you want serious pettifoggery, I could point out that any copper-based respiratory pigment I know of ain't bright green. It's dark blue.

And is it even true? Yeah, Spock has pointy ears. So? Some other Vulcan/Human hybrid might get a different combination of genes and have human-like ears. The obvious outisde physical differences between the Vulcans and the Humans are too small, anyway.

A completely different biochemistry, touch- and distance-telepathy, nictitating, polarizing (?) eyelids, a remarkable immunity to radiation... same body plan, but tremendous physical differences, few if any of which are human in characteristic, except the mentioned blood (what human characteristics his copper blood has is unknown).

So, basically, you're saying, it doesn't matter what real biology says, Star Trek is right in the confines of its own universe, even if it 1)is self-contradictory, 2)seriously undercuts drama, and 3)contravenes the best theories that explain how anything lives.

To the best of my knowledge, the only cases of children between two different species arising incontrovertibly through purely natural means are the ones involving Cardassians and Bajorans, which is neatly explained by a shared, recent biological ancestry. If there's a bit in VOY where Seska has a kid with a Kazon, I am unaware of it, and dearly hope that's not true.

I understand this is a long post and that you may or may not be reading by this point, so I will try to briefly restate my logic on this:

Argument 1:

Major premise: Pon farr is a biological process.
Minor premise: Biological processes are subject to selection pressures which favor organisms that can successfully reproduce.
Conclusion: Pon farr persists to ensure that Vulcans can successfully reproduce.

Major premise: Outside medical intervention, two species with radically different coding mechanisms and biochemistries are unlikely to conceive a viable offspring.
Minor premise: Vulcans and humans have radically different coding mechanisms and biochemistries.
Conclusion: Vulcans and humans are unlikely to conceive viable offspring.

Major premise: Selection pressures ensure that mating drives generally drive an organism to achieve union with an organism who is capable of providing it viable offspring.
Minor premise: Pon farr persists to ensure that Vulcans can successfully reproduce.
Conclusion: Pon farr should drive a Vulcan to seek a Vulcan mate.

Argument 2:

Major premise: Spock would never wilfully betray Starfleet if any other option were available.
Minor premise: Spock betrayed Starfleet during pon farr.
Conclusion: Pon farr did not leave Spock any available options (i.e., Christine Chapel, real dolls, socks, chemical treatments, intense meditation, hologram wives, Voyager technobabble, Ensign Ricky's taut young body, whatever).

Now if these premises are untrue, the logical scaffold collapses, of course, but I believe them to be true. As far as an explanatory framework, I think it works quite well.

I think our sticking point might be the major premise to syllogism three--"Spock would never wilfully betray Starfleet." The only other alternative is a set of syllogisms that goes:

"Major premise: Spock would betray Starfleet when not betraying Starfleet is a viable course of action.
Minor premise: Spock betrayed Starfleet during pon farr.
Conclusion: Spock values immediate gratification of his urges for T'Pring over his loyalty to Starfleet.

Major premise: A few weeks of enforced chastity or non-preferential sexual activity that will not interfere with the health of an officer does not constitute grounds for an officer to violate his Starfleet oath.
Minor premise: Spock violated his Starfleet oath based on a desire to not undergo a few weeks of enforced chastity or non-preferential sexual activity.
Conclusion: Spock injustifiably violated his oath."

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I believe Seska DID in fact have a kid with Maje Culluh.

As for how you can get 4 billion years apart and STILL have the degree of commonality between humanoid species--my personal theory is that the Progenitors seeded a retrovirus into the atmosphere of a bunch of Class M worlds. Whatever they did, this retrovirus is EXTREMELY robust to have maintained its own integrity over all this time--but it guides species through their evolution process by inserting its own code at various times. The survivors then go on to be the next stage in that planet's process of spawning a humanoid race.

Whatever this retrovirus is, it would be something that is endemic, that does not harm the humanoids by the time they become aware of themselves, so they never think a thing of it or realize it helped to fashion them.

Just a personal theory, of course...but to me it seems like the only way you can get around the problem of 4 BILLION years of convergent evolution yet biological compatibility enough that fertile children can be had even WITH medical help.

 

[Myasishchev]

I believe Seska DID in fact have a kid with Maje Culluh.

As for how you can get 4 billion years apart and STILL have the degree of commonality between humanoid species--my personal theory is that the Progenitors seeded a retrovirus into the atmosphere of a bunch of Class M worlds. Whatever they did, this retrovirus is EXTREMELY robust to have maintained its own integrity over all this time--but it guides species through their evolution process by inserting its own code at various times. The survivors then go on to be the next stage in that planet's process of spawning a humanoid race.

Whatever this retrovirus is, it would be something that is endemic, that does not harm the humanoids by the time they become aware of themselves, so they never think a thing of it or realize it helped to fashion them.

Just a personal theory, of course...but to me it seems like the only way you can get around the problem of 4 BILLION years of convergent evolution yet biological compatibility enough that fertile children can be had even WITH medical help.

I remember reading your take on it. Very thoughtful.

I had forgotten "Basics." God, I wish someone would bring up some event from a Voyager episode that didn't just poop in my cereal. I'd still argue for a frankenkid, but I'm not sure which stretches credibility more--two species at the ends of the galaxy making babies, or the Kazon having the wherewithal to put a chromosome back on right.

Also it doesn't make much sense within the plot of "Basics," and ultimately that is why I hate the pon farr bastardizations in Voyager--the implications sap every ounce of drama and conflict from my favorite TOS episode that doesn't have a guy waddling around on the floor under an collection of poorly-chosen swatches.

 

[I am not Spock]

I think humans would choose not to tell other races they come into contact with about their sordid past (slavery, wars, Nazism, etc). No doubt the Vulcans were horrified by the appalling past of humanity. Somehow, the secrets got out, though, because Quark berates Sisko in 'The Jem'Hadar' about humanity's dark ancestry, saying we were much worse than the Ferengi.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think humans would choose not to tell other races they come into contact with about their sordid past (slavery, wars, Nazism, etc). No doubt the Vulcans were horrified by the appalling past of humanity. Somehow, the secrets got out, though, because Quark berates Sisko in 'The Jem'Hadar' about humanity's dark ancestry, saying we were much worse than the Ferengi.

Someone forgot to tell John Gill about that.

Spock said: "Vulcan, like Earth, had its aggressive colonizing period, savage even by Earth standards"

Heck they had a nuclear war too.

So I'm thinking the Vulcans might not be horrified.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We often see in Trek that certain races have a reticence to air their dirty linen. Klingons don't talk about their foreheads, Vulcans don't share their mating practices, Romulans just didn't like being looked at for a hundred years.

What would humans have to hide from the rest of the galaxy? What would be our shame.

Humans are the only sentient species in the galaxy that still masturbates.

 

[Timo]

Like I said, I am willing to suspend disbelief enough to assume convergent evolution on humanoid genitals.

Convergent evolution ain't required, though. The whole point of "The Chase" was that those ancient humanoids wanted to ensure that the galaxy would stay populated with humanoids even in the far future - and that those humanoids would have a great time together. An obvious prerequisite for that would be compatible genitals...

If the Ancients managed to pervert evolution so that it constantly creates new humanoids, no matter what their origin or environment, then forcing evolution to create compatible genitals and compatible reproductive systems should be a breeze. That was the whole point of the exercise!

This sort of approach will quickly reach the limits of logic--in a franchise as sprawling as Trek, there are going to be times where one thing flatly contradicts another, and you're going to have to choose which one is more reliable and move on from there.

Only if you aim for a very compact and simplistic theory. And it's ultimately rather unsatisfactory, because the Star Trek universe gets significantly less "real" if it is allowed to be contradictory, a property that the real universe doesn't possess.

Much easier and more satisfactory IMHO to ease up on the conditions of your theory and accept all the evidence, even when seemingly contradictory. After all, the real world is like that, too. "Evidence" typically consists of misunderstandings and lies. If sometimes the Klingon Empire has an Emperor and sometimes hasn't had one for centuries, it's easy enough to decide (in the spirit of this very thread) that at timepoint T2 they want to hide the existence of an Emperor at timepoint T1.

In this particular case, we have several cases of interbreeding, including a few "accidental" ones and a few where medical assistance was required. It's not science, it's science fiction - so why not go for the perfectly intriguing scifi explanation offered for thos rather prominent phenomenon, and try to accommodate the contradictory bits via the "lies and mistakes" clause? Trying to stick to (today's) science isn't going to be productive when the interbreeding thing is such an important part of Trek storytelling.

On other occasions, it may well be a good idea to disregard a single piece of evidence by evoking "mistakes and lies", as long as one doesn't outright deny that it happened. But that only goes for single pieces; many an implausible thing in Trek is a feature rather than a bug, due to being either a commonly repeated mistake, or then a deliberate writer intention that spits in the face of today's science and then laughs in a particularly evil manner.

Major premise: Pon farr is a biological process.
Minor premise: Biological processes are subject to selection pressures which favor organisms that can successfully reproduce.
Conclusion: Pon farr persists to ensure that Vulcans can successfully reproduce.

Good enough. Alternative approach from here on: Vulcans are desert dwellers, and depend on scarce resources. Biological processes may exist in order to limit reproduction, so that it will become more successful. Moreover, the processes may steer Vulcans to maximize the alienness of their reproductive partners, because that's important for a species divided into tiny desert communities where incestual breeding would be a very attractive option. Such a biological pressure may backfire and result in extensive zoophilia, but not to the detriment of the species - but to its benefit, as alien partners indeed will prove viable.

Numerous other constructs are also possible, such as an extensive role of telepathic customs and mores in defiance of original, badly misguided biological pressures that are no longer valid now that Vulcan has become a desert (or Vulcans have been transplanted to a desert world). Pon Farr might be what old witches do to the children of the community in order to ensure that they don't inbreed. Or that a sufficient number of violent young males will die at an early age and not cause problems to the community. Communities shunning the Pon Farr practice will be driven to extinction because they aren't economically competitive, then.

As for Spock's loyalty to Starfleet, that may be another issue our heroes and villains don't like to discuss with outsiders. Hidden agendas and divided loyalties are likely to be common in an organization as diverse as Starfleet (as later portrayed); OTOH, they are also likely to be common in an organization as segregating as Starfleet (as portrayed in TOS). One may freely speculate that Spock opposed the mission to Altair to begin with, and made use of his ailment to sabotage that mission.

I'm not sure which stretches credibility more--two species at the ends of the galaxy making babies, or the Kazon having the wherewithal to put a chromosome back on right.

To be sure, Seska was a carefully bioengineered freak herself, probably highly trained in bioarts that would allow her to pass off as Bajoran. That training may have qualified her for creating babies of desired biological appearance - even without contribution of any males if need be.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[barnaclelapse]

^^^ booze and Star Trek - some of my favorite weekend pastimes! WIN!

I do what I can.