I know a black woman who prefers to be called coloured rather than black, that doesn't mean I call people coloured as a rule. I know she prefers it so around her I'll use it, but as a general rule I avoid using it.
We are pregnant!
- Thread starter Miss Chicken
- Start date
I know a black woman who prefers to be called coloured rather than black, that doesn't mean I call people coloured as a rule. I know she prefers it so around her I'll use it, but as a general rule I avoid using it.
The thing is that language is a 2-way street. You have speakers, and you have listeners.
It's easy to say that the speaker should be careful about what he says so he doesn't offend anyone.
At the same time, however, the listener needs to recognize the intent of what is being said.
It's easy to say that the speaker should be careful about what he says so he doesn't offend anyone.
At the same time, however, the listener needs to recognize the intent of what is being said.
If a woman uses it i could jokingly tell myself "How quaint, she is using the royal we" .
Though I dislike the phrase I don't think I would say anything if I heard someone use it (unless it was someone I was very close to).
Though I dislike the phrase I don't think I would say anything if I heard someone use it (unless it was someone I was very close to).
Yes, context is almost always key, for instance singing along to rap music and using the N word isn't the same as calling someone it in anger but at the same time I wouldn't sing along to a rap song in a room full of other people either.
I've been silly so far.
Just don't use it! (not you Miss Chicken) I have never heard it used in RL to be honest. I have heard "My Wife(or whomever) is pregnant/expecting and the guy may mention being a/the father. That is it.
ETA: I live in Bizarro world.
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I completely understand that there are some couples who have chosen to use the phrase. And given the happy nature of the event, I don't think I would ever say something (unless it's couched as playful ribbing to a good friend). But it does sound pretty dopey to begin with. And considering how it minimizes the experiences of other mothers, it is, at best, a questionable phrase - one that really ought to be avoided.
Besides, it seems it's only dirty colonials who use it.
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Amaris
Guest
I'm not dirty! I fell into a small pond last month, thank-you-very-much!
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Amaris
Guest
True. When I first entered the thread, it didn't matter to me, either way, whether someone said "we're pregnant," or not. I found the whole subject to be very light, and nothing to take so seriously. While I still feel that way (that it's supposed to be a light-hearted thread), I see some of the ladies in here find the phrasing to be rather distasteful, and I've made the mental note to never say it, if only because it seems to diminish the work of the woman carrying the child, which is certainly something I wouldn't ever want to do.
Also, Miss Chicken's ex-husband is a total asshole, and I hope she doesn't mind that I say that, but men who are abusive toward their wives (I refuse to call such men "husbands" because that word actually means something, and I only use the word "men" in the biological sense) make my blood boil.
I didn't mean to accuse anyone of man-hating, although it certainly seems to have been taken that way; I only meant that some of the comments seemed to have an element of it. The second part of that statement is perhaps a bit more accurate. If this was in TNZ where anything that can possibly be taken as an accusation is taken that way, I wouldn't have said it the way I did, but this is Misc., where we generally don't start with such assumptions so I wasn't so worried about it being taken wrongly. Sorry about that. I'll be more careful in future.
Really?
There are a few more as well, but I'll refrain from cluttering up the thread anymore. And, some of them come from Miss Chicken whose husband seems to have been an ass and didn't play any supportive role, so she can discount the man's role all she wants.
I never said the husband did just as much as she did, and neither did any of those who like/don't mind the phrase. I/we don't see it as a statement of taking ownership of the pregnancy or taking credit for all the work. It's a statement of family unity and joy, nothing more. This is where my comment about competition between the sexes comes from. It seems as though those who are offended by the statement feel that the woman is somehow diminished and the man is somehow elevated by the statement; as if the man is trying to win something or take something away from the woman by saying it, whereas those who like it see it as a family-building statement.
I think that that is very unfair. Women wanting to claim their wombs as their own is not being anti-man.
Lets look at some of the things women were up against during the 1960s-1980s.
1) In the 1960s women were fired from public service jobs in Australia as soon as they got married becasue the Powers To Be considered that once married a woman's job was childbearing. Many non-government employers were just as keen to fire married women.
2) When the Pill was first released during the 1960s it was only available to married women and some doctors insisted on the husband's permision.
Mothers and other married women used to have to lie to get prescriptions for the Pill so that they could pass on the Pill to their unmarried daughters and friends.
3) In Australia, it wasn't until the opening on Family Planning Clinics that single women started to be able to easily assess the Pill. The first FP clinic in my city opened in 1973 and in 1975 I had to catch two buses to the FP clinic that was on the opposite side of the city. Luckily I worked weekends so I was able to go to the clinic. It was much harder for girls who had standard working hours.
4) In the 1980s, as I previously stated, most women needed their husband's permission to have a tubal ligation.
5) It was only in 1980s to though the 1990s that laws changed to that men could be charged with a crime if their raped their wives.
6) Abortion didn't become legal in Australia until the 1980s or later.
Now in the 21st century there are politicians and religious leaders who are trying to, or actually have, stopped or limited women's access to contraceptions so it seems that many people haven't got the message that women's wombs belong to them.
Lets look at some of the things women were up against during the 1960s-1980s.
1) In the 1960s women were fired from public service jobs in Australia as soon as they got married becasue the Powers To Be considered that once married a woman's job was childbearing. Many non-government employers were just as keen to fire married women.
2) When the Pill was first released during the 1960s it was only available to married women and some doctors insisted on the husband's permision.
Mothers and other married women used to have to lie to get prescriptions for the Pill so that they could pass on the Pill to their unmarried daughters and friends.
3) In Australia, it wasn't until the opening on Family Planning Clinics that single women started to be able to easily assess the Pill. The first FP clinic in my city opened in 1973 and in 1975 I had to catch two buses to the FP clinic that was on the opposite side of the city. Luckily I worked weekends so I was able to go to the clinic. It was much harder for girls who had standard working hours.
4) In the 1980s, as I previously stated, most women needed their husband's permission to have a tubal ligation.
5) It was only in 1980s to though the 1990s that laws changed to that men could be charged with a crime if their raped their wives.
6) Abortion didn't become legal in Australia until the 1980s or later.
Now in the 21st century there are politicians and religious leaders who are trying to, or actually have, stopped or limited women's access to contraceptions so it seems that many people haven't got the message that women's wombs belong to them.
Yeah, really. Neither of those posts say that fathers aren't important in procreation, in assisting the mother during pregnancy, and in raising the child. They're not dismissing the role of fathers, which you took it as.
What they say is that fathers didn't go through the actual "mechanics" and pains and aftermath of pregnancy, so it's presumptuous to speak of it as if it's something both partners are experiencing. You're assisting, which is good and what you're supposed to do. You're not experiencing it, though.
Okay, but now you know how some women feel about it. So, as I said, you have a choice. You can continue on using it, which is your right. It's not likely to ever cause you any actual issues in life. Or you can consider their perspective and perhaps reconsider using the phrase. But telling the people who have directly experienced pregnancy and are sharing their feelings on the matter that they're wrong and implying all sorts of negative motivations to them them for expressing that opinion is not cool.
RJ you are being a huge jerk. You don't get to read my analogy about medical conditions and call me "bitter", say I should snap out of it and talk about how I "live in a negative miasma". Quite a turd dump on me based on as far as I can tell nothing.
Locutus's marathon analogy is a nicer one since it doesn't include a deadly disease and I thought of posting something like that initially but I've known enough women for whom pregnancy was hell and not a fun exciting project they set out to accomplish. If you're puking every day, in pain, going to the hospital constantly for tests because this project might kill or disable you unfortunately you feel more like you have a horrible medical condition than like you're doing something awesomely athletic.
Both analogies work fine though. If I was in a marathon and my partner said "we are running a marathon" I'd be like, excuse me?
And I don't give a shit if someone only has warm, benign, family intentions behind their use of the phrase. When I lived in the UK years ago we also went down the paki shop every single day and I had absolutely zero understanding of the racist element of that phrase. I wish people would realize that "I have only good intentions so I can use these words and phrases because it's all about intent" is missing the point entirely. IF your intent is all that wonderful than why would it not also be your intent to adjust your language once it's pointed out to you that it's not being taken that way?
Kommander you gave me a good laugh with that Firefly meme, very appropriate
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Amaris
Guest
That is a very good point. We've all said things we've felt were okay, until we found out that they were rather offensive to the targets of those words and phrases. The reasonable thing to do is adjust one's speech to accommodate that. Speech is constantly evolving; to stubbornly hold to something that bothers, or diminishes, a large segment of the population is foolish.
I would have thought so, too. Here's the point: Her ex-husband was one guy. He was an asshole who said and did terrible things. If he was a completely different guy-- tye type of guy who said and did nice things, like say "we're pregnant" and take part in the process-- then her experience would have been a lot better.
Indeed.It is odd how something that is supposed so beautiful can become so ugly. Much like everything else.
I'm sorry you took it that way. I was not trying to be a jerk or dumping on you. Just the opposite-- you made me feel sad for you. Somebody asked if the "we" thing applied to any other medical condition, I gave an example of couples using it as a show of solidarity and togetherness when one of them is battling cancer, and you responded very angrily and dismissively. It was certainly not my intention to hurt your feelings. That's the last thing I would want to do.
So I've done some extensive research on this (i.e. Googled for two minutes) to get a broader Internet perspective, and found a few blogs where it has been discussed, almost exclusively by women. Here is a typical example. Most like it or are okay with it, some are against it-- mostly because they are either the types who hate anything "saccharine" or they are being pedantic about the dictionary definition. No political connotations that I found.
I did find one blog by a man where it was brought up. In its own way it's just as sexist as anything on TrekBBS, but a lot more amusing. Basically, his advice to his fellow men is: "If she says 'we're pregnant,' she's being nice, so just go along with it-- just don't say it when you're alone with your friends."
Again, I like the saccharine stuff, I'm not that pedantic about dictionary definitions, I have no use for the macho stuff, and I think-- as one of the women in this thread said-- that it represents a great change from the old-school patriarchal attitudes. So I think it's a good thing.
So RJ when you "feel sad" for someone you call them dismissive negative words, tell them to snap out of it and lament their "negative miasma" to others.
You are quite the peach.
You are quite the peach.
Don't you realise that negative reinforcement is the only way to make people agree with you.
Yeah, that's totally not what your original statement implies. You might want to re-read it with fresh eyes.
