I think it was variety of tone being discussed, not quality. Debating the quality of these movies is for every other page and is only about opinions on why everybody hates everything anymore.
WB's Justice League 2017 movie pre-discussion thread
- Thread starter Samurai8472
- Start date
I think it was variety of tone being discussed, not quality. Debating the quality of these movies is for every other page and is only about opinions on why everybody hates everything anymore.
The fact that the really good movies in the MCU all real with serious themes whereas the 'dreck' movies all happen to be more comedic speaks to the point I was trying to make but apparently didn't illustrate clearly enough.
So, I've been thinking about what people said about Superman being an unheroic grimdark person, and trying to connect it to Snyder's vision of putting these heroes into something resembling our world. And I decided he really did go about it wrong. Here is a scenario I came up for the perfect Superman movie - one where he is in character like we know him from the comics, or Christopher Reeve's version.
Movie starts with Superman as we know him. Saving random people from random events while working as a reporter. As the world gets more used to a super man living among them, they wonder why he doesn't do more to help. Why won't he end gang violence? Why wont he end war? Why do people still die? We have Superman! He can save us!
Eventually the world resents him. Why won't he do more? News pieces are done in the media and Clark is asked to write a piece on why Superman is actually a selfish person for not saving the world. This begins to get to Superman and he realizes he has to do more. He starts getting more involved at street level. While he is saving some - others day. He ends up just seconds left to save a young man from being shot in a drive by. His mom is holding her son just as he's died, and Superman has arrived. She yells at him. "Where were you? YOU COULD HAVE SAVED HIM". Superman leaves. This is really getting to him. He needs to do more.
He sees atrocities from war on TV. He realizes - I don't need to pick a side! I'll just end war. War is the enemy. He starts in the Middle East. He stops Assad from bombing some civilians. A few weeks after he's in Africa stopping an uprising, and uses his superhero to hear some news on the TV - ISIS fighters from the town he saved from bombing have rounded up an entire village and slaughtered everyone.
Meanwhile in Africa he stops rebels from slaughtering some troops they took prisoner. He works tirelessly and ends the war. NO MORE FIGHTING! He leaves, only to see a report on TV a few months later that starvation has set in this country. The dictator the rebels were trying to overthrow needs all the food to feed his troops that suffered so much at the hands of the rebels. Children are starving. Entire families destroyed by hunger. So Superman knows what he must do. He has to feed the people but..... nobody is giving him food for free. More children die. People donate, but there is only one Superman, he can't distribute to everyone. Whatever gets distributed gets taken. So he has no choice. He steals the food. More food than these people could ever eat. Famine is over...
Superman is now the villain. He has taken from people who work hard to get that food. Other superheroes come after him. He defeats them, but he won't kill them. He is Superman. So they keep coming and keep coming. They have to stop the super menace. They corner him at home. Louis is killed in the super carnage. Superman loses his mind and know he has to end the pain, the endless pain. He flies into the sun, ending his own life.
THE END. The PERFECT superhero movie - that's what would happen in our world were we to have a hero.
Of course such an amazing movie would never be made by a studio. It would end the entire superhero genre. Hollywood makes its money selling hope - but it's a false hope. We live in a world without good or bad guys. Everyone is the same. There is only us and them. Prove me wrong Hollywood. Make this movie. Help people see the truth - only the truth will truly set us free. False hope enslaves.
Movie starts with Superman as we know him. Saving random people from random events while working as a reporter. As the world gets more used to a super man living among them, they wonder why he doesn't do more to help. Why won't he end gang violence? Why wont he end war? Why do people still die? We have Superman! He can save us!
Eventually the world resents him. Why won't he do more? News pieces are done in the media and Clark is asked to write a piece on why Superman is actually a selfish person for not saving the world. This begins to get to Superman and he realizes he has to do more. He starts getting more involved at street level. While he is saving some - others day. He ends up just seconds left to save a young man from being shot in a drive by. His mom is holding her son just as he's died, and Superman has arrived. She yells at him. "Where were you? YOU COULD HAVE SAVED HIM". Superman leaves. This is really getting to him. He needs to do more.
He sees atrocities from war on TV. He realizes - I don't need to pick a side! I'll just end war. War is the enemy. He starts in the Middle East. He stops Assad from bombing some civilians. A few weeks after he's in Africa stopping an uprising, and uses his superhero to hear some news on the TV - ISIS fighters from the town he saved from bombing have rounded up an entire village and slaughtered everyone.
Meanwhile in Africa he stops rebels from slaughtering some troops they took prisoner. He works tirelessly and ends the war. NO MORE FIGHTING! He leaves, only to see a report on TV a few months later that starvation has set in this country. The dictator the rebels were trying to overthrow needs all the food to feed his troops that suffered so much at the hands of the rebels. Children are starving. Entire families destroyed by hunger. So Superman knows what he must do. He has to feed the people but..... nobody is giving him food for free. More children die. People donate, but there is only one Superman, he can't distribute to everyone. Whatever gets distributed gets taken. So he has no choice. He steals the food. More food than these people could ever eat. Famine is over...
Superman is now the villain. He has taken from people who work hard to get that food. Other superheroes come after him. He defeats them, but he won't kill them. He is Superman. So they keep coming and keep coming. They have to stop the super menace. They corner him at home. Louis is killed in the super carnage. Superman loses his mind and know he has to end the pain, the endless pain. He flies into the sun, ending his own life.
THE END. The PERFECT superhero movie - that's what would happen in our world were we to have a hero.
Of course such an amazing movie would never be made by a studio. It would end the entire superhero genre. Hollywood makes its money selling hope - but it's a false hope. We live in a world without good or bad guys. Everyone is the same. There is only us and them. Prove me wrong Hollywood. Make this movie. Help people see the truth - only the truth will truly set us free. False hope enslaves.
You’re correct. I had forgotten about Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. That makes it six amazing Batman films in the real world so far. Feel free to disagree and/or live in Bizarro World.
Just for the record, the "2 really good Superman films" I was talking about are Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, and the "6 really good Batman films" I was talking about are Batman '89, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises.
Good thing most of the MCU isn't dreck. It's all part of the uphill battle MCU has been fighting with every single movie.
Marvel movies are mostly dreck but Batman Forever is a really good film. All right then.
Disney fighting an uphill battle with the MCU?! 
I’d say they’re about the same. Only difference, Batman Forever and Joel Schumacher did it first.
I’d say they’re about the same. Only difference, Batman Forever and Joel Schumacher did it first.
Disney fighting an uphill battle with the MCU?!
Yes, every movie they put out gets the stink eye even when they're a success and they've been getting ragged on for making movies about D-Listers for years and how the whole thing is a mess for daring to try and make movies against the DCEU and XCU.
Remember the reactions got when Iron Man was first announced? That it would flop.
Same with Avengers, and Guardians, and Ant-Man, and Guardians 2, etc.
Every single DC and X-Fan out there just can't wait to rip into an MCU movie.
If you’re talking about character recognition then it’s exactly the same "uphill battle" that WB had with Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad and FOX had with Fantastic Four, Deadpool and the upcoming New Mutants.
No, Green Lantern was already known. So was Wonder Woman. Plus Suicide Squad had Joker and Harley Quinn in it.
Same with FF at Fox. The brand already had recognition.
It's only now that Fox is pushing the envelope with New Mutants and they tie to the X-Men.
The MCU keeps getting ripped into for any new characters they introduce. Even Homecoming which had Spider-Man.
Come on, you can't possibly believe such a blanket generalization, and it's a mean-spirited and divisive thing to say. We're all fans here. We all love good stories. Most of us have no interest in the kind of gatekeeping and gang warfare that you seem to desire. For me, for plenty of other people, fandom is about community. It's not us vs. them, it's all of us finding common ground in our love of fantasy/SF entertainment, even if we like different things. That's what I see when I go to conventions. I don't see bickering or fighting between different fandoms, I see people taking enjoyment in a common experience. The Internet tends to promote divisiveness and conflict because it's depersonalizing and anonymous, so the petty and mean-spirited few are more emboldened to speak out and dominate the narrative, but that's not what fandom really is.
For myself, I like both DC and Marvel (although DC screen adaptations over the past decade have been far more inconsistent in quality than Marvel), and I like both the MCU and the X-Men films. I want them all to be good. I'm sure most fans do, because where's the sense in wanting anything to be bad?
You ever had to put up with toxic X-Fans or Nolanites for an extended period of time? They're like that Dales guy but worse. I don't recall ever running into any Iron Man or Cap fans like that.
@Christopher +1.
Truth. There was crap about how Holland looked like a pre-teen, how dumb it was to show that Queens wasn't full of only white people, how dumb it was that May wasn't a walking cadaver, how Flash wasn't going to be a generic Jock, how dumb it was how Peter had ANY ties to the rest of the MCU instead of the movie pretending it was in a vacuum, etc.
You don't see anyone claiming how dumb it is for Flash to look up to Batman or how they should be the same age but Flash is younger here.
