WB's Justice League 2017 movie pre-discussion thread

[JD]

Very sad news for the Snyder family.
It sounds like this won't have a huge effect on the movie since that majority of it is done. I am glad that they went to somebody as talented as Joss Whedon to oversee the rest of the work.
I wonder what his and Patty Jenkin's experiences with DC/Warner have been like compared to their experiences with Marvel/Disney?

 

[dahj]

Also that they wanted to deal with this privately, but had to make it public because internet trolls and clickbait sites would have a field day.

 

[Jax]

My thoughts with Zach No parent should have to bury their child.

 

[Tosk]

Such horrible news. My heart really goes out to the Snyders.

 

[Christopher]

I was referring to reports from last week that the movie had been completely "overhauled" since filming, and that this was more than just the standard reshoots. Although I guess that's being downplayed a bit now.

Like I said, fandom reacts exactly the same way to every report of movie reshoots, because a lot of people still don't understand that reshoots are a normal part of the big-budget filmmaking process, no different from a prose author like me doing rewrites and copyediting of a first-draft manuscript (except a lot more costly to achieve). And for some reason, they never remember all the previous times it happened.

 

[Tosk]

I was referring to reports from last week that the movie had been completely "overhauled" since filming, and that this was more than just the standard reshoots. Although I guess that's being downplayed a bit now.

It's always hard to know for sure just how much tinkering is going on behind the scenes. Seeing as additional shooting is pretty standard these days, it can be hard to tell what's additional shooting, what's re-shooting, and what's a massive effort to fix big problems. Even Rogue One tried to downplay the alterations, and that one was demonstrably changed quite a lot.

As long as the end product is good though, they can re-shoot whatever they want.

 

[Christopher]

Seeing as additional shooting is pretty standard these days, it can be hard to tell what's additional shooting, what's re-shooting, and what's a massive effort to fix big problems. Even Rogue One tried to downplay the alterations, and that one was demonstrably changed quite a lot.

But the thing is, significantly altering a work to fix its problems is not some anomaly or evidence of failure, it's a basic part of the creative process. Fans only see the finished work, so they have this tendency to assume that it sprang into being in complete form like Athena from the head of Zeus, but creating is more a process of trial and error and discovery along the way, so changing your mind and replacing your first attempt with something else is a normal, routine thing. In moviemaking, you want to get that part out of the way as much as possible in the writing and preproduction phase, because doing it in the filming phase is more expensive; but big-budget blockbuster films have the luxury to do it in the filming phase as well.

You see this sort of thing in the theater too. When a new play or musical is premiered, the writer and producers watch audience response and see what works and what doesn't, and so they often rewrite the play in response to that, e.g. cutting out musical numbers that aren't well-received or adding new material to clarify confusion. Movies do much the same thing with test screenings, and prose authors do it with beta readers. Taking the opportunity to refine and adjust the work at every stage of the process isn't evidence of a breakdown in the process, it's just taking extra care.

 

[davejames]

Like I said, fandom reacts exactly the same way to every report of movie reshoots, because a lot of people still don't understand that reshoots are a normal part of the big-budget filmmaking process, no different from a prose author like me doing rewrites and copyediting of a first-draft manuscript (except a lot more costly to achieve). And for some reason, they never remember all the previous times it happened.

I think most fans know by now that reshoots are a normal process of filmmaking. What this story was initially describing though was a lot more than that. And there have certainly been plenty of movies in the past that have suffered from heavy tinkering by the studio (Suicide Squad anyone?), so not sure why the possibility suddenly seems so crazy and farfetched to people.

Obviously I hope that's not what is happening with JL, but I'm not going to just ignore every bad report I hear about a movie either, or pretend everything is always hunky dory no matter what.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Like Christopher just mentioned, making significant changes to a film or theatrical work is not anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Timby]

But the thing is, significantly altering a work to fix its problems is not some anomaly or evidence of failure, it's a basic part of the creative process.

No shit, Tosk already acknowledged that in the exact post you quoted:

Seeing as additional shooting is pretty standard these days

Was there really a need to reiterate his point, except with 250 words?

 

[Christopher]

I think most fans know by now that reshoots are a normal process of filmmaking. What this story was initially describing though was a lot more than that. And there have certainly been plenty of movies in the past that have suffered from heavy tinkering by the studio (Suicide Squad anyone?), so not sure why the possibility suddenly seems so crazy and farfetched to people.

I'm not saying the changes aren't major. That's missing my point. The point is that even major, wholesale changes can be a normal part of the creative process. Heck, my first original novel, Only Superhuman, came about only after I completely threw out my first novel about that character and setting and started over from scratch. There's another original story I recently wrote where I got stuck halfway through, completely changed my planned ending to something quite different and unexpected, then went back and threw out the first two scenes and replaced them with something largely different.

What I'm saying is that a work of fiction needing major surgery is not a rare thing, and it is not a sign that the work is doomed or mismanaged or whatever people read into these things. Even if it's a massive change, it's not a scandal or a disaster. Sometimes it just takes longer to find the right story to tell. Sometimes you go too far down the wrong path and have to backtrack and try again. This sort of thing happens behind the scenes far more often than the audience realizes.

 

[Gaith]

"And, what have reshoots ever done for us?!"
"That Darth Vader attack in Rogue One?"
"Well, yes, everyone knows about that. But besides that?"
"The Avengers' schwarma scene?"
"Taking Arwen out of Helm's Deep?"
"The not-bullshit ending to Pretty in Pink?"
"Yes, obviously, but lads - apart from those -"​

 

[Timby]

What I'm saying is that a work of fiction needing major surgery is not a rare thing, and it is not a sign that the work is doomed or mismanaged or whatever people read into these things.

Jesus goddamn Christ, no one in this thread is doomsaying or claiming that it's a sign the movie's a mess. Literally everyone is agreeing with you, yet you insist on writing mini-novels to defend a position which isn't being attacked. Stop it.

 

[ancient]

In other news, did you know Aquaman can swim at 2 miles per second?

 

[Christopher]

Jesus goddamn Christ, no one in this thread is doomsaying or claiming that it's a sign the movie's a mess. Literally everyone is agreeing with you, yet you insist on writing mini-novels to defend a position which isn't being attacked. Stop it.

There is no attack or defense here. I don't know why you're being hostile or assuming that I am. I'm just trying to offer some insight into the process. This is merely a conversation, not a shouting match. Or at least it is on my end.

And "mini-novels?" My last post was two paragraphs. How is that excessive?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Jesus goddamn Christ, no one in this thread is doomsaying or claiming that it's a sign the movie's a mess. Literally everyone is agreeing with you, yet you insist on writing mini-novels to defend a position which isn't being attacked. Stop it.

Unfortunately, the ignore function isn't an option for everyone.

 

[LJones41]

I don't know his daughter and only know him through his works. What are we supposed to discuss? Try to find me one article about this incident that doesn't mention Justice League.

How about . . . I'm sorry for what happened to his family and move on without using the incident as an excuse to describe your feelings about his movies? It seems like the tasteful thing to do. Or . . . just don't bring up what happened to his daughter and wait until the furor is over with.

 

[davejames]

^ Like Christopher just mentioned, making significant changes to a film or theatrical work is not anything out of the ordinary.

Of course it's not. But that doesn't mean it always results in a better or more improved film either. And not sure why it's wrong to simply point that out.

I'm not attacking Snyder or DC or anything here, and want the movie to work as much as everyone else.

 

[JD]

"Taking Arwen out of Helm's Deep?"​

So there was a version with that in the movie? I remember hearing rumors about that before the movie came out, but didn't think it ever actually happened.

How about . . . I'm sorry for what happened to his family and move on without using the incident as an excuse to describe your feelings about his movies? It seems like the tasteful thing to do. Or . . . just don't bring up what happened to his daughter and wait until the furor is over with.

I think it's fair to talk about how this will effect the movie.
I've seen plenty of people being sympathetic, but at the same as far as I know nobody here knows the Snyders personally, so you can't really expect people to be overly emotionally about the whole thing.

 

[Gaith]

So there was a version with that in the movie? I remember hearing rumors about that before the movie came out, but didn't think it ever actually happened.

Yep, the Two Towers bonus features show clips of Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep, and Jackson and the producers claim that they'd decided to remove her (while keeping the elf contingent) from the sequence before the fans got wind of her presence and started griping. Not sure if that was technically a reshoot, or a revision of an ongoing shoot (probably more the latter, I think), but it was filmed to some degree.