Way of the Warrior Station Battle

[Timo]

Actually, the words of Dax were "well over a hundred ships just in the first wave", possibly suggesting thousands overall.

As for how many ships were deployed against DS9, we certainly saw more than thirty. About fifty are shown in the establishing shot where the two pursuers of the Defiant abandon their target and the camera pans past the stations to reveal the actual fleet. And that possibly with the time-honored (that is, mentioned in the early part of the episode) Klingon practice of keeping some assets cloaked.

But if we assume the station really destroyed about a dozen or more, and wounded others, yeah, it is plausible that a few Starfleet ships added to the mix could prove decisive. If for nothing else, then at least for preventing any wounded ships from escaping the massacre at the station - unless the entire Klingon fleet withdrew en masse. Now that would give Gowron pause.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Blueicus]

In the shot after the conversation between Gowron and Sisko there were at least fifty ships on screen. I personally think there were probably not much more than that, or I think the handful of federation ships wouldn't have changed the tides of battle much unless they were all Galaxy class.

 

[votd]

But how many of those 50 were small BOPs? If we forget the Enterprise being taken down by one, they're pretty crap compared to a Starship - didn't Kruge say Kirk outgunned him 3(?) to 1 with a Constitution class so a group of Excelsior/Galaxy class starships plus the station could make a hell of a dent in that fleet.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

There is no way there were 50 Klingon ships.

This is 50 ships:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/akira/akira-excelsior-sacrificeofangels.jpg

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Ezri said:
Klingons are creampuffs ... hmmmm ... what taste filling is inside Worf ...I say vanilla

Blood for cream! Blood for cream!!

The reason Sisko didn't target all weapons on the command ship because killing Gowron would've made tensions even worse.

 

[Red Ranger]

What struck me is that often, Kira and O'Brien seem to get the worst of these hand-to-hand battles. She gets stabbed by one of the Klingons, and poor O'Brien gets his ass handed to him by a bat'leth-wielding Klingon! Ouch! -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

JoeZhang said:

TeutonicNights said:
I wonder what happened to those knocked-down warriors in ops. Very nice of them to stay unconscious until the battle was over.
BTW do you think they killed or stunned those Klingons beaming in?

The Klingons are one of those races who never match up to what we are told about them - every fight we see them in, they are creampuffs!

Come to think of it, the Jem'Hadar aren't so tough, either, considering how often we saw, in close quarters hand-to-hand combat, Sisko kicking their asses, like in "The Search" when they boarded the Defiant. Hmm! -- RR

 

[AdmiralGarak]

Sisko, Kira, Worf and the lot have one thing the Jem'Hadar don't-- experience. The average Jem'Hadar is about two or three before they're killed. How much experience could they possibly have compared to seasoned fighters?

 

[Photon]

Come to think of it, the Jem'Hadar aren't so tough, either, considering how often we saw, in close quarters hand-to-hand combat, Sisko kicking their asses, like in "The Search" when they boarded the Defiant. Hmm! -- RR

Sisko, like Chuck Norris, kicks everyone's ass

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Red Ranger said:

JoeZhang said:

Come to think of it, the Jem'Hadar aren't so tough, either, considering how often we saw, in close quarters hand-to-hand combat, Sisko kicking their asses, like in "The Search" when they boarded the Defiant. Hmm! -- RR

Yes, but they wanted Sisko and company alive.

 

[Ezri]

Photon said:

Come to think of it, the Jem'Hadar aren't so tough, either, considering how often we saw, in close quarters hand-to-hand combat, Sisko kicking their asses, like in "The Search" when they boarded the Defiant. Hmm! -- RR

Sisko, like Chuck Norris, kicks everyone's ass

Sisko = Chuck Norris
Chuck Norris = Sisko

 

[Timo]

There is no way there were 50 Klingon ships.

You're right, that's only 40 ships...

Although to be sure, this isn't the entire fleet - we saw more than four Vor'Chas in the battle.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarKush]

My issue with that battle was how incompetent the Klingons were. They were pushovers. They didn't seem like feral, tough warriors at all.

 

[Ezri]

The Klingons will be pushovers if the Borg come to town

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

AdmiralGarak said:
Sisko, Kira, Worf and the lot have one thing the Jem'Hadar don't-- experience. The average Jem'Hadar is about two or three before they're killed. How much experience could they possibly have compared to seasoned fighters?

A lot when you're genetically engineered to do nothing but fight, and train to fight. And if you don't sleep - try tripling the notion!

 

[Timo]

My issue with that battle was how incompetent the Klingons were. They were pushovers. They didn't seem like feral, tough warriors at all.

I'm not sure I quite agree - but it would make Klingonesque sense for Gowron to send his wussiest units in first. This whole bravado about teaching the Feds a lesson would be nothing but a political gesture on his part anyway. He runs an empire that hasn't seen proper war for decades, and has been previously ruled by a fat guy who avoided conflict by compromising. What he needs is a glorious campaign that at once awakens the Klingon fighting spirit and paints Gowron himself as a great leader. And if that same campaign also helps him get rid of those Klingons who can't or won't fight, all the better: their deaths will feed the warlust of those that remain.

Whether there were Founders on Cardassia or not seemed fairly irrelevant to Gowron, so he could afford to fail to conquer DS9. He did get the military glory he wanted, plus a strategic foothold near Cardassia and the wormhole. Or at least "Martok" would convince him that the campaign had been a great success, and that further others like it would be a great idea...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Timo said:
He did get the military glory he wanted, plus a strategic foothold near Cardassia and the wormhole.

Which was no doubt of great importance when the Dominion War began.

 

[Timo]

...Although it would seem the Klingon fortifications were all in the Cardassian space that the Dominion swiftly retook, leaving Gowron with zip. Or at least we never again hear of another Klingon possession anywhere near DS9 after the Dominion putsch is completed.

"Way of the Warrior" certainly makes it look as if the Klingons were really far away from home, in terms of military logistics. Difficult for them to hold on to their planets in face of Dominion assault, I guess.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Plecostomus]

I always enjoyed this battle for the simple fact it showed tactics.

One of the highlights of this battle for me was the simple fact that they DIDN'T send the Defiant out. I've grown tired of having the ship become shiny/new between after a pounding. Clearly sending the Defiant out would have been suicide.

Also I really REALLY enjoyed watching a Federation asset just cut loose like that.

In short it was an enjoyable episode, there were use of some basic tactics by both sides and it was thought out beyond the typical "flash in pan" style space-battles that we've seen other places.

Also: ZOMGLOL F1r5+ p05+!!!!1

 

[USS KG5]

Fire said:
That Sisko is so crap at battles its unreal, the station is getting pounded by Klingon ships and instead of saying get the weapons online and fire at will and blast those ships to dust he instead says fire on my command, waits 3 minutes and says 'fire even numbered torpedos' (2 minutes later) 'fire odd numbered torpedos' (2 minutes later) 'fire phasers'.

It was a few seconds between each command, you are exagerrating a bit.

I mean what the hell? never mind fire them at separate times just fire them all at once and blast those Klingons back to the Beta Quadrant!! and what was with the whole waiting 3 minutes at the start before returning fire when the station was getting pounded!

Sisko was still trying to stop the battle and save lives, so he had those reasons for not letting loose with everything at once.

Also - tactically - shooting everything you have in one big burst as your first shot is rarely a sound strategy. Sisko showed the his firepower with a series of casual strikes and drew them in close enough that he did a lot of damage with each one. It like a boxer waiting for the opportunity for a hard punch rather than randomly plugging away.

As for the tactics why the heck would you waste torpedoes on Birds of Prey, anyone with a decent level a battle sense would have took the BOPs out with the phasers and torpedoed the Vor'Chas

The BoPs were probably a bigger threat, getting close in to smack a hole in the shields. The Klingons big guns were keeping their distance and restricting their own damage it seemed and Martok seemed very reluctant to move close to engage - possibly because of the close in firepower Sisko so ably demonstrated...

and then that would be AFTER firing every single torpedo at the Negh'Var first!

if you're going to win a battle you start by taking out the flag ship.

Naah - if you are going to win a battle of that kind you follow the principle of calculated risk, you balance your ability to do damage to the enemy against the fact you need to avoid damage to your own forces. Sisko could not afford to cream the Negh V'ar, killing the only person who could stop the battle in the process and driving the Klingons nuts, while merrily totally ignoring the whole fleet of small ships smashing his station to shreds.

During Leyte Gulf a US Destroyer group launched a torpedo attack on the IJN Yamato that sent it running away for 10 minutes. The Klingons were obviously fighting with careful tactics and Sisko was as well.

PLUS - Sisko's desire to win the battle was secondary to his desire to STOP it. He did not want to kill as many Klingons as possible (a pretty crappy strategy) but to hold off the superior enemy forces long enough for his support to get there, whose mobile forepower coupled with the stations defenses would prove decisive.