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Watchmen (the novel) - who here has read it? PROBABLE SPOILERS

Hurm.

Watchmen thread.

This forum is afraid of me.

I have seen its true face.

Have read Watchmen.

Think it's fantastic.

If you haven't read it, do it.

DO IT!
 
I first picked it up years ago. It is one of the few comics that I've returned to for multiple readings (along with Kingdom Come). I think I've gotten through it, maybe four or five times total. I'll likely pick it up again right before the movie.
 
I loved the graphic novel, but the precise nature of the climax - basically, Moore plagiarizing "The Architects Of Fear" and passing it off as homage by inserting a reference to it on one of the last pages of the book - struck me then and now as cheesy and cheap.

The overall texture of the thing, the characters, the world-building involved, the detail and nuance - they've never been equalled in the superhero genre.
 
I loved the graphic novel, but the precise nature of the climax - basically, Moore plagiarizing "The Architects Of Fear" and passing it off as homage by inserting a reference to it on one of the last pages of the book - struck me then and now as cheesy and cheap.

To be fair, "The Architects of Fear" stole that plot point from the midpoint of The Sirens of Titan...
 
I loved the graphic novel, but the precise nature of the climax - basically, Moore plagiarizing "The Architects Of Fear" and passing it off as homage by inserting a reference to it on one of the last pages of the book - struck me then and now as cheesy and cheap.

To be fair, "The Architects of Fear" stole that plot point from the midpoint of The Sirens of Titan...

And back beyond that, I'll bet.

There was a political/science fiction thriller published sometime between 1974 and 1976 that utilizes the "Fear" plot with an enormous amount of detail that (coincidentally?) tracks point-for-point with Moore's "Watchmen" plot. I don't remember the title but keep looking for it online and in used book stores, because I'm loathe to synopsize something like that when I can't present specific references for it.

I don't know, maybe someone else remembers it: it revolved around a plot authorized by a (post-Watergate, obviously) U.S. President to counter radical political unrest by manufacturing an "alien threat." The hoax involved a team of scientists and engineers designing a fake alien spacecraft that would be made to appear to crash into a residential area of San Francisco releasing a poisonous gas which would kill quite a considerable number of people.

Although the poison gas part of the plot is kept from the eager researchers who are assigned to fake up alien corpses, develop alloys for the "ship" and so on at least two of the researchers come to realize that the whole project has to end in their deaths to prevent any chance of the hoax ever being revealed. One of them uses his specialized knowledge to code a message to the outside world in RNA injected into chocolates in a box(!) that he tries to have sent to someone outside the project.

Of course, such supposedly permitted contacts with the outside world are routinely interdicted and disposed of by the spooks running the project. In this case, though, the box of chocolates is found in the very last pages by a security type whose assignment is to clean up the compound (after all the researchers have been disposed of) and who - without knowing the significance of the thing - decides to send it as a small "peace offering" to an estranged daughter who's into radical politics at school.

I remember a few lines of dialogue from the book - the opening sentence is something like "Mr. President, they took out the Lincoln Memorial" (an after-midnite phone call reporting on a successful bombing by a group of domestic radicals) and during the internal debate about greenlighting the hoax the President mentions Watergate (to which the spook who's developed this diabolical plan responds tersely "Amateur night."). There's also an ongoing challenge involving each of the teams of scientists trying to come up with the x-factor (not what they called it, I don't think, but I don't remember what they did call it) that would lead someone examining, say, the alien bodies or the alloy composition of the spacecraft or the fake stardrive to the "proper" conclusion that yes it must truly be from outer space.

It was such a peculiar story that it reminded me at the time of some of Edwin Corley's odder fantasy/thrillers like "The Jesus Factor." I'm sure it wasn't one of his, though, because I'd remember that. It was not, to my knowledge, a best seller or otherwise successful book - I knew of it and browsed it heavily only because a friend who absolutely devoured speculative political thrillers - "Night Of Camp David" at about the same time, anything by Allen Drury - was reading it.
 
I'm such a humanist that I can't stand anything ending with the message that the people need to be fed a pretty lie rather than deal with an obvious truth. The end of The Dark Knight bothered me for the same reason.

I think you might be misreading the ends of both.

With Watchmen, the final panel makes it clear, I think, that the truth will get out. The final word balloon is symbolic: "I leave it entirely in your hands." Humanity will learn the truth about Ozymandias's false alien threat, and they will therefore be able to make their own informed choice about whether or not they will survive. And their chances of making the choice to survive are significantly enhanced now that Doctor Manhattan, whose presence was the source of the escalation of the Cold War (as established in the "Super Powers and the Superpowers" excerpt), has left Earth.

With The Dark Knight, the point wasn't to say that people cannot stand the truth. I think that the scene on the boats made it clear. Both boats knew the ugly truth - that the other boat could easily kill theirs first, or that the Joker could kill both. But both boats chose not to become murderers. The Dark Knight's message wasn't that people can't take the truth, but that sometimes they deserve something better. Sometimes they deserve to have their faith in each-other re-affirmed, even if it isn't true. It's not, "They can't handle the truth" so much as, "The truth is not good enough for them, so we shall tell and empowering [rather than disempowering] lie."
 
Wild Card by Raymond Hawkey and Roger Bingham (Stein & Day, 1974).

Interesting to see that I'm not the only one who thinks "Watchmen" is a bit too similar:

Link

It's not just the "banding together against an alien threat" storyline - there are a number of specific plot points that map between the two, including the recruitment of a team of creators who are destined to be killed and the suggestion that just after the apparent success of the respective hoaxes they may each be unraveled by messages from dead victims...
 
If you want comics deconstruction, in my opinion Supreme does it much better, not least by taking on the Big Guy in superheroland, Superman.

I'm not sure that I agree that Supreme does it better, but it's certainly every bit as good, if in an apples-and-oranges kind of comparison. It's a shame that the collected editions of Supreme are so badly put together, and so pricey at that.

In fact, I'm not sure I could recommend anything by Alan Moore except Watchmen.

Oh, there's a lot of Moore stuff I could recommend - V for Vendetta, for one, which is a kind of proto-Watchmen in some ways, as Moore starts to explore themes and devices he'd come back to later. And Swamp Thing (soon to be reprinted in spiffy new hardcover collections) is a masterpiece of comic book horror, suspense, and even romance.

The real other masterpiece, is Marvelman (Miracleman in the States) which, sadly, is long out of print and unlikely to be reprinted any time soon due to a nightmarish tangle of rights. It's brilliant, and might be Moore's definitive take on the super-hero.

So I guess I'm the only one who read it and thought it was overrated and pretentious?

Nah, there's lots of other people who thought that. They were wrong too. :p
 
If you want comics deconstruction, in my opinion Supreme does it much better, not least by taking on the Big Guy in superheroland, Superman.

I'm not sure that I agree that Supreme does it better, but it's certainly every bit as good, if in an apples-and-oranges kind of comparison. It's a shame that the collected editions of Supreme are so badly put together, and so pricey at that.

In many ways "Supreme" is my favorite of Moore's superhero projects - but I'm a big "Superman" fan and read the character through many of the decades that Moore and his artists on that series recreate so skillfully. They parody-of-a-parody of the "Mad" magazine "Stuperman" story was particularly delightful.

The Allies
 
Oh, the ending of Dark Knight in my opinion was too confused to be successfully about any theme, except the poor old Batman is a noble martyr to the ungrateful masses. There's nothing empowering about believing Batman is a murderer when he's not, for one thing. Believing that Harvey Dent was the Noble Hero Who Was Martyred isn't particularly empowering either, for that matter. The sudden revelation that Dent was Two Face all along tends to inspire contempt for the poor souls deceived by his democratic demagogy.

Also, the Nolan Batman is such a ninny that he might conceive some lunatic "reasoning" for punishing himself. But the movie establishes zero reason for Gordon to go along with it. But, then, Gordon in the movie doesn't have reasons for much of anything he does. The ending of Dark Knight was inadvertently comical. I nearly laughed out loud in the theater.

As for Watchmen's ending, I agree that the story plainly implies the eventual revelation of Ozymandias' plot. But plenty will disagree, particularly those who deny that Rorschach is thereby granted a posthumous victory, over everyone. One of the flaws in Watchmen is an infatuation with Rorschach's badassness. The prison sequence is quite bad in its absurdity.

Also, there is no good reason to regard "Super powers and the Super Powers" as any more insightful than Rorschach's shrink. Especially since Nite Owl I's memoirs are explicitly shown to be partial at best. It's hard to tell whether Watchmen comes down on Rorschach's side because it rejects the noble lie or just because Rorschach was just so damn cool.
 
I read the book years ago. Read it twice in fact. Guess I should reread it again before seeing the movie this March. :D

I really liked the teaser and the trailer. Though the music for the second half of Trailer 2 sucked IMO.
 
I received my copy of Watchmen as a Christmas gift in 1987. I was 14. Since then I have made it a tradition to read it during the month of December. I have now read it 21 times. My copy is care worn, dogged eared, and filled with sticky notes. Despite some glaring flaws and clearly being a pastiche rather than wholly original - it is a sublime creation of unique and singular character that resonates and influences with both its pretentious vulgarity and simple genius.

I have girded myself for disappointment despite holding out hope for the cinematic version.
 
...the precise nature of the climax - basically, Moore plagiarizing "The Architects Of Fear" and passing it off as homage by inserting a reference to it on one of the last pages of the book - struck me then and now as cheesy and cheap.

I thought so too at first, but then I came to appreciate the in-story irony. Veidt's master plan was nicked from a television show. The master plan was not so masterful after all.
 
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To be fair, "The Architects of Fear" stole that plot point from the midpoint of The Sirens of Titan...

For those interested, Theodore Sturgeon's 1948 short story Unite and Conquer - which is available online - appears to be the originator of this particular sci-fi subgenre. :)

TGT

Crap, TGT, is there anything you don't know? ;)

As for 'Watchmen' I didn't know much about it til I saw the trailer with 'Dark Knight' and was a little put off by what little I knew of Alan Moore, but then once I read it, and re-read it, and re-read it, I have to say it's just brilliant and one of my top five favorite graphic novels. I also skipped the 'Black Freighter' parts the first go through but then read them on the first re-read and it really enriched the story.
 
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