Watching the Clock question for Chris Bennett

[Sci]

Right, because Sci is clearly trying to discover your real-world identity for his nefarious purposes. Grow up. If you don't want to cite your qualifications, fine, but there's no reason to be confrontational about it. A simple, "I'd rather not" would suffice.

PS - Tiberius, you don't know Sci.

EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! TARGET HAS DETECTED OUR IDENTIFICATION ATTEMPTS!

ABORT MISSION TO PLANT FALSIFIED PHOTOGRAPHS OF TARGET DRINKING WITH STALIN, BERNIE MADOFF, AND THE DARK LORD SKELETOR WITH TARGET'S EMPLOYERS AND FAMILY! BLACKMAIL ATTEMPTS WILL BE UNSUCCESSFUL!

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Please.
I was referring to my being confrontational towards you, Sci. It's well deserved, based on your past forum behaviour.

 

[Sci]

Please.
I was referring to my being confrontational towards you, Sci. It's well deserved, based on your past forum behaviour.

You do realize I was asking both you and Ian Keldor, right? That, in other words, this was me wanting to know the qualifications of all of the debate's participants, not directed at you particularly, right?

 

[Christopher]

Remember when this topic was about physics instead of other posters' personal shortcomings? Good times...

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^You're right, Tiberius, because a cat is a macroscopic entity, an ensemble of a large number of particles. Thus it obeys what we call classical physics (at least insofar as a cat may deign to obey any physical laws), which are the physics of ensembles of particles rather than those of individual particles.

To all indications, the mind, like the cat, behaves as a classical ensemble, and the kind of quantum-level changes that split universes according to MWI happen below the level that would affect the neurological activity of the brain.

That makes a lot of sense. I really liked the way the MWI is explained in Watching The Clock. Not every event/decision/change is significant enough to result in the creation of a new timeline, since choosing beef over chicken isn't likely to result in or prevent an earth-shattering kaboom. It was a way of looking at parallel timelines that I had never considered or read about before, and I found it quite interesting, at least as far as I understood it...I had to do a lot of re-reading for the first little while...

 

[rfmcdpei]

^You're right, Tiberius, because a cat is a macroscopic entity, an ensemble of a large number of particles. Thus it obeys what we call classical physics (at least insofar as a cat may deign to obey any physical laws), which are the physics of ensembles of particles rather than those of individual particles.

To all indications, the mind, like the cat, behaves as a classical ensemble, and the kind of quantum-level changes that split universes according to MWI happen below the level that would affect the neurological activity of the brain.

That makes a lot of sense. I really liked the way the MWI is explained in Watching The Clock. Not every event/decision/change is significant enough to result in the creation of a new timeline, since choosing beef over chicken isn't likely to result in or prevent an earth-shattering kaboom. It was a way of looking at parallel timelines that I had never considered or read about before, and I found it quite interesting, at least as far as I understood it...I had to do a lot of re-reading for the first little while...

I liked the idea, too. Watching the CLock was easily one of the best Trek novels of recent history.

 

[JD]

^I did too. I found all of the time travel/alternate reality concepts in WTC very interesting. I was very impressed with how easily the seemingly inconstant portrayals of those concepts were tied together into one consistent theory.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Right, because Sci is clearly trying to discover your real-world identity for his nefarious purposes. Grow up. If you don't want to cite your qualifications, fine, but there's no reason to be confrontational about it. A simple, "I'd rather not" would suffice.

PS - Tiberius, you don't know Sci.

EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! TARGET HAS DETECTED OUR IDENTIFICATION ATTEMPTS!

ABORT MISSION TO PLANT FALSIFIED PHOTOGRAPHS OF TARGET DRINKING WITH STALIN, BERNIE MADOFF, AND THE DARK LORD SKELETOR WITH TARGET'S EMPLOYERS AND FAMILY! BLACKMAIL ATTEMPTS WILL BE UNSUCCESSFUL!

FTW.

 

[Kertrats47]

I, like many, initially misunderstood the whole Schrodinger's Cat thing. Here a great video that clears up some of the confusion surrounding this thought experiment. Just thought I'd share a little bit about quantum physics, about which I am endlessly fascinated but most definitely a layperson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWMTOrux0LM

 

[sportzkid]

^You're right, Tiberius, because a cat is a macroscopic entity, an ensemble of a large number of particles. Thus it obeys what we call classical physics (at least insofar as a cat may deign to obey any physical laws), which are the physics of ensembles of particles rather than those of individual particles.

To all indications, the mind, like the cat, behaves as a classical ensemble, and the kind of quantum-level changes that split universes according to MWI happen below the level that would affect the neurological activity of the brain.

That makes a lot of sense. I really liked the way the MWI is explained in Watching The Clock. Not every event/decision/change is significant enough to result in the creation of a new timeline, since choosing beef over chicken isn't likely to result in or prevent an earth-shattering kaboom. It was a way of looking at parallel timelines that I had never considered or read about before, and I found it quite interesting, at least as far as I understood it...I had to do a lot of re-reading for the first little while...

I liked the idea, too. Watching the CLock was easily one of the best Trek novels of recent history.

Agree with that assessment, it presented physics and theories on time travel in an understandable manor while at the same time constructing a good story around time travel.

I, like many, initially misunderstood the whole Schrodinger's Cat thing. Here a great video that clears up some of the confusion surrounding this thought experiment. Just thought I'd share a little bit about quantum physics, about which I am endlessly fascinated but most definitely a layperson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWMTOrux0LM

Thanks for the link to that video, certainly helps.

 

[Hando]

I would like to jump in and pose some questions too.
Do I understand it right, that the various alternative timelines can wage their temporal war only because they share their past (as they branched of)?
If not would somebody explain it to me in simple terms, because I just don't seem to get it.

Also shouldn't any and all time travel create an alternative timeline? After all when one goes to a different time one introduces an extra set of quanta. Or is this explained away by entanglement?

Next is an issue with The temporal defense grid, which will probably remain unanswered:
How does asking for permission to enter a time period work? Who can be asked? How can one ask? Wouldn't asking itself be prohibited by the grid?
How does it work for beings like Q, the Prophets, the Guardian or even using the Axis of Time? Does it prevent all time travel or just the known set at construction?
Does it work in both directions? Can somebody from the past visit the future? Couldn't the same do the people from the future, travel back and then forward? Or just use time dilatation?
What is the actual problem with the grid? They know where the satellites are and what they are made of, so why can't they send some probes into the past and just watch how they are built?

Well, hopefully I will get some answers. Than you.

 

[Christopher]

I would like to jump in and pose some questions too.
Do I understand it right, that the various alternative timelines can wage their temporal war only because they share their past (as they branched of)?
If not would somebody explain it to me in simple terms, because I just don't seem to get it.

I deliberately left it vague whether the factions came from different parts of the same timeline or from alternate timelines; the idea is that their conflict has affected the shape of time so much that they're no longer sure themselves.

Also shouldn't any and all time travel create an alternative timeline? After all when one goes to a different time one introduces an extra set of quanta. Or is this explained away by entanglement?

I addressed the physics in a fair amount of detail in the book itself, and there's some further discussion in my annotations. I'm not sure how much more I can add.

Next is an issue with The temporal defense grid, which will probably remain unanswered:
How does asking for permission to enter a time period work? Who can be asked? How can one ask? Wouldn't asking itself be prohibited by the grid?

I didn't think it through that far. But I assume there are formal, regulated channels of communication that can be employed.

How does it work for beings like Q, the Prophets, the Guardian or even using the Axis of Time? Does it prevent all time travel or just the known set at construction?

It prevents unauthorized temporal incursions into the region and period in which it's active. Since the laws of physics are universal, presumably all time travel has the same basic physical parameters regardless of the mechanism. Beings like the Q could probably cancel out the grid's effects if they so chose. The Prophets don't travel through time but simply exist throughout time, so it's probably not an issue. The Guardian only seems to display the past, and we've never seen it in operation in the distant future except in a couple of Strange New Worlds stories which were obviously written before I introduced the concept of the defense grid, so I have no way of answering that question. And the Axis of Time only opens on certain very widely separated eras of history, so it probably bypasses the era of the grid altogether.

Does it work in both directions? Can somebody from the past visit the future? Couldn't the same do the people from the future, travel back and then forward?

As I said, all temporal incursions, in either direction, would involve the same basic physical effects and be equally detectable. After all, some time-travelling factions (e.g. Future Guy) are at odds with groups from their own future (e.g. the Temporal Agents), so it wouldn't be much of a defense if it didn't work both ways.

Or just use time dilatation?

Sure, they could use time dilation or cryogenics to get to a future time the old-fashioned way. Or they could travel to a part of the galaxy beyond what's covered by the grid and then just move through space. I never said it was a foolproof system. But I assume the temporal factions have other means in place to monitor one another and try to detect and prevent ways of getting around the grid, just as the nations in the real-life Cold War had spies working to circumvent each other's efforts to get around their respective early-warning radar lines (at least in fiction).

What is the actual problem with the grid? They know where the satellites are and what they are made of, so why can't they send some probes into the past and just watch how they are built?

They know where the satellites were once they finally discovered them, but didn't know how long they'd been active or how far they'd moved since then. So they wouldn't know where and when to look for the origin point of the satellites and thus wouldn't know where to strike to prevent their construction. I'm sure it's a lot more complex than I made it sound; after all, the planners had generations to work out the details. And the fact that nobody really knows how it was done is kind of the whole point, so try to appreciate the mystery.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I gotta say, the reveal about the origins of the grid was without a doubt my favorite part of Watching The Clock.

 

[Christopher]

^IIRC, the epilogue was one of the earliest things that came to me in developing the novel. As soon as it occurred to me, it just felt so right.

 

[Hando]

Christopher, please I just want to confirm I am not descending into idiocy and/or am missing something obvious. This is NO criticism, as I am truly thankful for you willingness to answer.

But how sure are you with your calculations of alien dates?
I have tried to follow the info on your site, but came to a conflict when I tried to use them for myself. Please take a look at

Spoiler: XLS

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=13T0W_lMC5XB6d0E5UjUDJL2X4r0Vg8Dh5ZVln6WAEUU if there is a problem or too much of a mess just say so

Also all the calculators I used gave me the orbital period of 166.98 days for Vucan (if orbital radius is 0.56 AU and the Star/sun's mass is 0.84 of Sol)

And finally, why are the Cardassian/Aegis agent named Cyral Nine and Rodal Eight, rather than Cyral Ter and Rodal Tag. ie Why not use Cardassian numbers as their last names rather than English?

Please don't hate me.

 

[Christopher]

But how sure are you with your calculations of alien dates?
I have tried to follow the info on your site, but came to a conflict when I tried to use them for myself. Please take a look at

Spoiler: XLS

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=13T0W_lMC5XB6d0E5UjUDJL2X4r0Vg8Dh5ZVln6WAEUU if there is a problem or too much of a mess just say so

I think you went into far more detail with the computations than I did, or would recommend that anyone do. It's entirely possible that my calculations contain errors, given that I worked each one out separately and didn't compare them against each other, and I tried to allow for a little wiggle room. Ultimately I wasn't really trying to construct a completely coherent and usable system, but just do the work to make the fictional world feel a little more coherent to the reader.

Also all the calculators I used gave me the orbital period of 166.98 days for Vucan (if orbital radius is 0.56 AU and the Star/sun's mass is 0.84 of Sol)

Hmm, I get roughly the same result using those figures. I think I was actually using the Internet Stellar Database's mass estimate of 0.75 Solar masses, and got my references crossed when I compiled the calendar page later on. Good catch.

And finally, why are the Cardassian/Aegis agent named Cyral Nine and Rodal Eight, rather than Cyral Ter and Rodal Tag. ie Why not use Cardassian numbers as their last names rather than English?

Because the readers don't speak Cardassian and wouldn't recognize them as numbers. And because the universal translator is probably converting the numbers into English for the viewpoint characters.

Please don't hate me.

Why would I? They're reasonable questions, and you caught an error, for which I'm thankful. I'll amend the page to clarify things.

 

[Hando]

I think you went into far more detail with the computations than I did, or would recommend that anyone do. It's entirely possible that my calculations contain errors, given that I worked each one out separately and didn't compare them against each other, and I tried to allow for a little wiggle room. Ultimately I wasn't really trying to construct a completely coherent and usable system, but just do the work to make the fictional world feel a little more coherent to the reader.

OK, got it. I was just under the impression that since you put so much research into the time (year, ..., day, ..., second) conversion to earth time, that you went all the way. After all you also cited where dates were used. Kind of funny there, the original dates are internally consistent and also yours are internally consistent.

Also all the calculators I used gave me the orbital period of 166.98 days for Vucan (if orbital radius is 0.56 AU and the Star/sun's mass is 0.84 of Sol)

Hmm, I get roughly the same result using those figures. I think I was actually using the Internet Stellar Database's mass estimate of 0.75 Solar masses, and got my references crossed when I compiled the calendar page later on. Good catch.

Ha, already changed didn't you.

And finally, why are the Cardassian/Aegis agent named Cyral Nine and Rodal Eight, rather than Cyral Ter and Rodal Tag. ie Why not use Cardassian numbers as their last names rather than English?

Because the readers don't speak Cardassian and wouldn't recognize them as numbers. And because the universal translator is probably converting the numbers into English for the viewpoint characters.

I suspected as much. It just made me pause as to why the Cardassians used the English numbers. It could have been a hidden easter egg and you could have explained that they are numbers in the annotations. But I bow to your decision after all I found the Cardassian numbers on the internet and am not sure how official/known they are.

Please don't hate me.

Why would I? They're reasonable questions, and you caught an error, for which I'm thankful. I'll amend the page to clarify things.

Great, and here I was thinking that you wouldn't look kindly on my attempts to undermine your research.


On a somewhat unrelated issue.

I have universe A with alternative timelines A1 and A2 (A2 branched from A1) and universe B.
A person from B visits A1 returns to B and then visits A2 - or first visits A2 and then A1. Do the A timelines converge?

Is entropy measurable? If yes, couldn't it be used to pinpoint when and where time travel occurred and from what time period?

And lastly what is your take on whether the Time Planet is safe from time tempering? Or if it forces timeline jumping, if I got the theory right? It seams to be in the City episode (Kirk and co are unchanged, but Enterprise disappeared) while in Yesteryear also the researchers and McCoy are affected. The novel Imzadi followed the City principle... Also if it is protected could it be used to store information before a shielded database is developed? Or does it only work if the Guardian is used for time travel and not a different tool, like the slingshot?

Ah yes, if you plan to address a question in a future novel or plan to keep it in the bag for now just say so.

 

[Christopher]

But I bow to your decision after all I found the Cardassian numbers on the internet and am not sure how official/known they are.

I've never heard of any officially established Cardassian number words. I looked it up, and what you're referring to is apparently this, which was created by fans on a Usenet newsgroup.

Great, and here I was thinking that you wouldn't look kindly on my attempts to undermine your research.

As a rule, we can't make much progress in life if we're unwilling to be corrected. Certainly in science, published research is expected to be challenged, tested, and refined, and that's part of the process of writing hard science fiction too. Heck, Larry Niven got a whole book, The Ringworld Engineers, out of a fan correction of an error in his calculations in the original Ringworld. The fans pointed out that the Ringworld would be unstable since its center of mass was within its primary star rather than orbiting it, and so he wrote a sequel to explain how that instability was dealt with.

I have universe A with alternative timelines A1 and A2 (A2 branched from A1) and universe B.
A person from B visits A1 returns to B and then visits A2 - or first visits A2 and then A1. Do the A timelines converge?

Well, generally a "universe" really is an alternate timeline, if it has an Earth and humanity and familiar individuals. But I did make a distinction between alternate timelines created by time travel (e.g. the one where Edith Keeler lived and Hitler won) and those that diverged spontaneously (e.g. the Mirror or Myriad Universes). The convergence only happens between the timeline where the time travel in question occurs and the timeline that was created by the time travel, because it's the time travel itself that creates the entanglement between them. It was necessary that it not happen between spontaneously generated alternates, or else the Mirror Universe couldn't have endured. I worried a bit about "In a Mirror, Darkly" and the Defiant traveling through time to affect the history of the MU, but the rule (which I admit is a fudge and I don't have a very solid rationale for) is that it only happens if the time travel creates the timeline in the first place, thereby "imprinting" it with a phase signature of the original timelinee.

Is entropy measurable? If yes, couldn't it be used to pinpoint when and where time travel occurred and from what time period?

Entropy isn't a universal constant. It's a property of a particular closed system. You can measure the entropy increase of a particular mechanism doing work, but that won't be the same as the entropy somewhere else.

Enterprise gave us the idea of "quantum dating" to determine the year of origin of an object and whether it was in the past or future. Which is nonsense, but we're stuck with it.

And lastly what is your take on whether the Time Planet is safe from time tempering? Or if it forces timeline jumping, if I got the theory right? It seams to be in the City episode (Kirk and co are unchanged, but Enterprise disappeared) while in Yesteryear also the researchers and McCoy are affected. The novel Imzadi followed the City principle... Also if it is protected could it be used to store information before a shielded database is developed? Or does it only work if the Guardian is used for time travel and not a different tool, like the slingshot?

I address the Guardian more fully in DTI: Forgotten History.

 

[Hando]

But I bow to your decision after all I found the Cardassian numbers on the internet and am not sure how official/known they are.

I've never heard of any officially established Cardassian number words. I looked it up, and what you're referring to is apparently this, which was created by fans on a Usenet newsgroup.

That is the site. I just entered "cardassian numbers" into google and the language seemed logical. Kind of liked how they explained the names of the stations.

Well, generally a "universe" really is an alternate timeline, if it has an Earth and humanity and familiar individuals. But I did make a distinction between alternate timelines created by time travel (e.g. the one where Edith Keeler lived and Hitler won) and those that diverged spontaneously (e.g. the Mirror or Myriad Universes). The convergence only happens between the timeline where the time travel in question occurs and the timeline that was created by the time travel, because it's the time travel itself that creates the entanglement between them. It was necessary that it not happen between spontaneously generated alternates, or else the Mirror Universe couldn't have endured. I worried a bit about "In a Mirror, Darkly" and the Defiant traveling through time to affect the history of the MU, but the rule (which I admit is a fudge and I don't have a very solid rationale for) is that it only happens if the time travel creates the timeline in the first place, thereby "imprinting" it with a phase signature of the original timelinee.

this is probably a case of me not seeing the wood for the trees. I will try to give ST example.
You know my view on nuTrek, but let's go with the theory that it is a divergent timeline.
The going theory is that Memory Omega in the Mirror universe gained its technology by traveling to parallel universes.
So let's say a Memory Omega team visits nuTrek. We know that there was/is contact between regular Prime universe and the mirror universe.
So what happens?
Does the prime universe get overwritten; nothing happens; end of the universe...

Is entropy measurable? If yes, couldn't it be used to pinpoint when and where time travel occurred and from what time period?

Entropy isn't a universal constant. It's a property of a particular closed system. You can measure the entropy increase of a particular mechanism doing work, but that won't be the same as the entropy somewhere else.

Enterprise gave us the idea of "quantum dating" to determine the year of origin of an object and whether it was in the past or future. Which is nonsense, but we're stuck with it.

Well, I got this idea from you. time travel "imports" entropy; a higher-entropy timeline overwrites a lower-entropy timeline...
So the idea i got from that is that time travel is like a drop in a sea. And the ripples are the entropy increase.

Or is it that a time-traveler arrives and the entropy of the whole universe rises to the same number as is the entropy of time of origin.

And lastly what is your take on whether the Time Planet is safe from time tempering? Or if it forces timeline jumping, if I got the theory right? It seams to be in the City episode (Kirk and co are unchanged, but Enterprise disappeared) while in Yesteryear also the researchers and McCoy are affected. The novel Imzadi followed the City principle... Also if it is protected could it be used to store information before a shielded database is developed? Or does it only work if the Guardian is used for time travel and not a different tool, like the slingshot?

I address the Guardian more fully in DTI: Forgotten History.

Did I miss something again. Well time to hit the books.

 

[Christopher]

The going theory is that Memory Omega in the Mirror universe gained its technology by traveling to parallel universes.
So let's say a Memory Omega team visits nuTrek. We know that there was/is contact between regular Prime universe and the mirror universe.
So what happens?
Does the prime universe get overwritten; nothing happens; end of the universe...

Nothing happens, because it isn't a direct 2-way exchange between the original timeline and the one that was branched off of it by time travel. That's the only case where the convergence happens (because I came up with the idea of convergence to explain the sci-fi conceit of time travel "rewriting" history).

I can see what you're saying -- that if A is entangled with B and B is entangled with C, it follows that A and C would be entangled. But the thing is, this isn't an entirely consistent model. Trek time travel is all over the place and I tried to come up with a system that explains it as best I could, but there are necessarily some arbitrary assumptions being made here. I don't really have a good explanation for why the convergence doesn't happen in that case; it's been a while since I really thought about the details of the model I came up with, so I can't come up with one off the top of my head right now. Let's just say that since the connection between the two timelines is indirect, they aren't drawn together. It's like the third timeline "insulates" them from each other.

Well, I got this idea from you. time travel "imports" entropy; a higher-entropy timeline overwrites a lower-entropy timeline...
So the idea i got from that is that time travel is like a drop in a sea. And the ripples are the entropy increase.

Or is it that a time-traveler arrives and the entropy of the whole universe rises to the same number as is the entropy of time of origin.

Again, this is a case where I had to fudge things to try to come up with a remotely credible-sounding explanation for something that's basically fantasy. The conceit of fiction is that the altered timeline always overwrites the original one, and I had to come up with some sort of handwave for why it wins out, and entropy was the best excuse I could think of. I'm not sure my entropy explanation is really consistent, and you shouldn't worry too much about trying to figure out its details because it's ultimately still just a fictional conceit, an attempt to diminish the amount of disbelief a science-savvy reader would have to suspend.

Let's just say that entropy isn't uniformly distributed. If you introduce new entropy into a particular part of the universe, then yes, technically, the total amount of entropy in the universe has gone up, but that doesn't mean it's gone up uniformly everywhere. (By analogy, if a family of five immigrates from Europe to New York City, the population of the United States thus increases by five, but that increase is localized to NYC and has no impact on the population of, say, Cincinnati.)

So while, globally and in the vicinity of the temporal warp, there would be an entropy increase, that doesn't mean it's something you could measure and get a single, fixed number for. It's more an aggregate sort of thing.