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Waste and recycking in TOS...

Warped9

Admiral
Admiral
It was never discussed in TOS although there is some discussion about it in The Making Of Star Trek--the issue of waste and recycling in the Trek universe.

I've long imagined it to be quite similar to what was seen in TNG although in TOS a panel covered the dispensing receptacle. Materiel is broken down into basic elements and nanoteched ("prodessed" or "replicated") into new forms.



What follows is an excerpt post from one of my threads in the Arts forum that touches on this subject:

Many of us have long wondered what was in the aft compartment on the port side--something we never saw on TOS. Indeed we saw very little of the starboard side either (which I'm working on presently). So here is my take on it. This is based on the idea of the vehicle having to support up to seven personnel over at least a few hours to several days or even a few weeks duration (the longer the mission duration the likely fewer personnel on board). It's my conjecture that this area in the aft compartment is what the Galileo crew were primarily tearing apart and jettisoning overboard to lighten the ship's take-off load. My thought is they ripped out (or more likely dismantled with tools) the bulkheads and what they could tear out from behind the bulkheads. My design has large storoage bunkers behind the starboard side bulkhead so they likely threw out whatever might have been stored there as well (possibly environmental suits and assorted gear). Given that two crewman had already died (Latimer and Gaetano) prior to the attempted lift-off then it's likely the remaining crew could have jettisoned two seats now no longer needed, but they ran out of time.



What looks like a familiar toilet is actually the waste management system. Anything that needs to be disposed of (besides human waste) goes into this receptacle that seals tightly before disposing of the contents. A proccessing and recycling system reduces the materiel to its most basic elements and recycles whatever possible into usable elements. If there is anything that cannot safely be recycled then it is either placed into a temporary storage reseptacle or jettisoned into space via a small transporter.

One could also add a form of retractable curtain for additional privacy on the port side of the compartment.

Although it was never explained on TOS the food and matter processing system had to have been quite similar to what was seen on TNG only it was done with the dispensing receptacle covered with a panel. It is effectively a compact transporter system that takes basic elements and rearranges them into new forms. For something like the shuttlecraft which would have a much less extensive system than the Enterprise the processing system is primarily for a "limited" selection of food and beverages and possible a limited number of other things. By "limited" I mean most likely in comparison to the extensive resources of the Enterprise while it would be heaven compared to what astronausts must sustain themselves with today.
 
My impression is that the TOS era did not have anything like replicators. While never directly referred to on air (and therefor not canon), the system was described in The Making of Star Trek as consisting of automated food dispensing machines, the food was delivered by small turbolifts to dining areas. This is the machinery Scotty spoke of in The Trouble with Tribbles.

The waste disposal on the TOS era shuttles would likely consist of simply disintegrate any waste.

:)
 
Neither in print or onscreen is it ever detailed how it's done therefore it's open to speculation. Indeed a lot of TOS tech can be more rationaled through applying advanced tech.
 
Been a while since I saw "Flashback" [VOY], but didn't Janeway specifically say they did not have replicators during Kirk's five year mission?

--Alex
 
Not the biggest supporter of "retcon," on rare occasions sure, but some fans want to use retcon like a fire hose.

:)
 
If we think about it critically it becomes clear that some very advanced tech has to be at work for the "processing" system to work as we see it onscreen. It can't be a dumb-waiter system like some kind of miniature elevator simply because that would be too cumbersome and far too slow to be feasible. Also it was stated in the series that they could manufacture all sorts of things aboard ship (flintlocks, custom clothes, gemstones, etc.) so they would have to have some very sophisticated fabrication system at hand because they certainly wouldn't be carrying those things in storage.

Because they never really explained it we're left to rationalize it in some manner. Now just because we saw something for the first time on TNG doesn't mean that that's where it started in universe. Indeed it makes more sense that such technology had already existed for sometime and the TNG version is simply the most recent version. And remember that in TMP Kirk had a robe materialize out of nowhere onto the Vger Ilia probe.

Today we are merely at the early stages of making or "printing" three-dimensional objects. The technology will only get more sophisticated in years to come. And we have already seen very advanced science in TOS with FTL warp drive, teleportation and gravity manipulation on a fine scale. So a manufacturing (or processing) system that utilizes nanotech in tandem with teleportaion is not a leap even if they never used such terms onscreen.
 


What looks like a familiar toilet is actually the waste management system. Anything that needs to be disposed of (besides human waste) goes into this receptacle that seals tightly before disposing of the contents. A proccessing and recycling system reduces the materiel to its most basic elements and recycles whatever possible into usable elements. If there is anything that cannot safely be recycled then it is either placed into a temporary storage reseptacle or jettisoned into space via a small transporter.

One could also add a form of retractable curtain for additional privacy on the port side of the compartment.

Although it was never explained on TOS the food and matter processing system had to have been quite similar to what was seen on TNG only it was done with the dispensing receptacle covered with a panel. It is effectively a compact transporter system that takes basic elements and rearranges them into new forms. For something like the shuttlecraft which would have a much less extensive system than the Enterprise the processing system is primarily for a "limited" selection of food and beverages and possible a limited number of other things. By "limited" I mean most likely in comparison to the extensive resources of the Enterprise while it would be heaven compared to what astronausts must sustain themselves with today.

More great work. Very sensible placement. :bolian:
 
It can't be a dumb-waiter system like some kind of miniature elevator simply because that would be too cumbersome and far too slow to be feasible.
The transporter during the TOS period was never shown to be particularly quick. The dematerialization and rematerialization process was actual fairly slow. Also the transporter seems to be a large piece of equipment, even allowing for the food transporters being smaller. And you're probably talking about having several dozen, maybe over a hundred full up transporters, scattered around the ship.

The dumbwaiter network for food delivery would likely be faster, consume less power and less room aboard the TOS Enterprise than transporter delivery.

:)
 
It can't be a dumb-waiter system like some kind of miniature elevator simply because that would be too cumbersome and far too slow to be feasible.
The transporter during the TOS period was never shown to be particularly quick. The dematerialization and rematerialization process was actual fairly slow. Also the transporter seems to be a large piece of equipment, even allowing for the food transporters being smaller. And you're probably talking about having several dozen, maybe over a hundred full up transporters, scattered around the ship.

The dumbwaiter network for food delivery would likely be faster, consume less power and less room aboard the TOS Enterprise than transporter delivery.

:)
No, it could never be as fast as seen onscreen.
 
The food dispensers somehow got fully infested with tribbles. Would they have gotten that infested if the dispensers were full fledged replicators? However, the food dispensers were sure churning out the food in "TAS The Practical Joker."

On the other hand, as pointed out above, the Enterprise was able to quickly produce flintlocks and Nazi uniforms upon demand.

And how would such a sophisticated dumb waiter system work intertwined with the turbolift system, Jefferies tubes (oh wait, the were not that sprawling on TOS) and pressure bulkheads?

Maybe it was a combination. There were large replicators located in one location and some kind of transport system carried them to the dispensers.
 
Re: the tribbles.

Perhaps the system recognized a biological life form and thus didn't reduce them to basic elements and just transported them whole. The food is manudactured is one place then transported to wherever it's requested. Perhaps the tribbles got to the food at the source.
 
Neither in print or onscreen is it ever detailed how it's done therefore it's open to speculation. Indeed a lot of TOS tech can be more rationaled through applying advanced tech.

I know it was just terminology of the era, but there were constant references to 'manufacturing' or simply machining things in situations that other series would use a replicator for.

If we take 3D printing technology alone, some form of multi-head printer mechanism connected to liquified or solution based materials we can't work with today could rapidly manufacture extremely complex items.

Or even sub-nano manufacturing by similar machines, given Kirk's remark about being able to make a sizable amount of perfect gemstones in little time (while still imply they needed to be assembled in some way).

If you combine vapour deposition molding, 3D printing and nano-machinary, you could have three machines turn out a Phaser and send it down the line to be charged in minutes.

In that era, even if early replicator technology was being developed along side newer generation transporters and very early hard-light projection holograms, it would still suit the nature of the Constitution class more to have more reliable workshops for deep space assignments.

The various tools litered around work surfaces in nearly every work area of the ship imply a lot more physical tooling, and basically all power usage remarks throughout the series would rule out something as high powered as matter-energy replication in heavy use.

So solid waste disposal, with a chemical breakdown and recovery system, seems likely too.
 
And how is it not retconning to declare that there certainly were replicators in TOS?

I image machinery somewhere churning out synthetic turkey and other menu items and then queuing them up near whereever the food dispenser is, then when something is ordered, the particular items show up in the slot. It would be a varied menu, but not a huge one.

I can also imagine the bulk of this processing being handled in a central facility, then essentially crates of foodstuffs being loaded by crewmen, carted via the same corridors and turbolifts everyone uses and then loaded into the "local" dispenser hardware.

If you want something off-menu, you get ingredients and make it yourself. I get the impression in "Amok Time" that Nurse Chapel made the plomeek soup herself, not dialed it in on the food dispenser.

Another thing is that it seems that food dispensers are not ubiquitous in the way replicators are. Most every room seems to have a replicator in TNG. But in TOS, if you want food, you go to a rec room of one kind or another. (or that one transporter room, that one time.) This suggest to me that these areas are adjacent to the final stage food prep and could be practically delivered by high-speed dumbwaiter (provided it has it's own inertial damper, to prevent dixie cups of coffee from spilling.) Think back to old mid-twentieth century automats.

Now, human waste could be piped to a central sewage area and cleaned, processed, and recycled to a degree, but only some of it would be usable; some stuff would just have to be disposed of. Though I imagine this area to be adjacent to the food manufacture area, as the recycled material would be used there.

Though not exactly how it's described in TMOST, I feel this is a lot closer to what they had in mind back in the 60s.

Right after food preparation, TMOST goes on to describe the laundry, where articles of clothes are broken down into their basic fibers and the reassembled clean. I would suggest that this would be a precursor to the replicator technology, but not truly the same thing as there is no attempt to alter the material at a molecular level, just break down and reassemble.

This sounds like how a transporter works; perhaps early transporters did their thing always in a real time way and it was not possible until later developments to grab raw matter, apply a novel template, and reconstitute that matter in the alternate form (as a replicator does). (of course, barring the truly bizarre circumstances, like contamination from magnetic yellow exotic space dirt...)

--Alex
 
Re: the tribbles.

Perhaps the system recognized a biological life form and thus didn't reduce them to basic elements and just transported them whole. The food is manudactured is one place then transported to wherever it's requested. Perhaps the tribbles got to the food at the source.

I think it's even simpler than that. Tribble smells food, it crawls into the chamber and the tribble jumps on it. The food may have been transported but the tribbles were not.

I realize that doesn't leave much time for the tribbles to eat it, but on a television show would they actually show a character waiting for their food for a full 30 seconds? The pacing would be terrible no matter what the tech can do.

I also don't think it's a retcon to say there is some kind of replication system on TOS, but it's clearly not as advanced as later devices called "replicators" Just like the recreation room is less advanced than the holodeck.
 
Random sniping again:

1) The biggest problem with a physical dumbwaiter system is that it would consume immense amounts of onboard volume. The personnel turboshafts are already bad enough in terms of hogging cubic meters. A tube network that allows a turkey on a tray to travel to such diverse locations as a recreation room and a transporter room would be anathema to sensible engineering. Food traveling either as cable-thin "data streams" or "phased matter streams" or as pipe-thin "generic food paste" would be much preferable.

2) If not for that transporter room terminal, we could easily argue there is no dumbwaiter, just a food-creating machine installed directly behind the hatches that reveal the trays full of food. It need not be a replicator: something that sprays edible paste in an appealing shape and heats it up would suffice. But dedicating such a machine to an individual transporter room makes very little sense.

3) Yes, the definition of "replicator" probably is a very narrow one, and many a preceding device that already exploits transporter technology might well disqualify. I love the fan idea of TOS having "fabricators", even though the device or the technology isn't specifically mentioned in canon...

4) It's indeed curious that even Kirk doesn't have a personal food dispenser in his cabin. OTOH, Rand gets those trays from somewhere; perhaps there's a dispenser in each deck section anyway, plus a greater concentration in communal dining areas.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Mirror Kirk had a "food slot" on the bed side of his quarters that dished up a couple of drinks. And I've considered that the safe behind Kirk's desk might itself be a mini turbolift that brings documents from a ship's valut.

The food lift might be able to move considerable faster that the large passager turbo lift because the anti-acceleration field holding things in place wouldn't have to allow for passager movement, in fact you wouldn't want any movement at all. So items would be "glued" in one position, 50 to 100 gees, no problem.

Rand seemed to have had to carry Sulu's tray a fair distance, so delivery might only be in the saucer's core area, and not in the outlaying rim, or the upper/lower decks. The secondary hull would have it's own isolated delivery area, completely separate from the saucer's.

:)
 
Random sniping again:

1) The biggest problem with a physical dumbwaiter system is that it would consume immense amounts of onboard volume. The personnel turboshafts are already bad enough in terms of hogging cubic meters. A tube network that allows a turkey on a tray to travel to such diverse locations as a recreation room and a transporter room would be anathema to sensible engineering. Food traveling either as cable-thin "data streams" or "phased matter streams" or as pipe-thin "generic food paste" would be much preferable.

This is why I suggested one central fabrication area and then local "hubs" from which the dumbwaiters operate. The basic food stuffs (perhaps in the form of a variety of edible pastes as you describe below) would be handled manually from the central area to be delivered and installed in the "hub" machinery adjacent to the food-eating areas. The dumbwaiters would only be traveling, at most, yards. There would be no need to have them snake all through the ship.

2) If not for that transporter room terminal, we could easily argue there is no dumbwaiter, just a food-creating machine installed directly behind the hatches that reveal the trays full of food. It need not be a replicator: something that sprays edible paste in an appealing shape and heats it up would suffice. But dedicating such a machine to an individual transporter room makes very little sense.

I think you are basically right, except that one hub of "automated galley machinery" services a handful of nearby compartments. That one transporter room may simply happen to be adjacent to one of these hubs and the designers figured, "eh, why not."

3) Yes, the definition of "replicator" probably is a very narrow one, and many a preceding device that already exploits transporter technology might well disqualify. I love the fan idea of TOS having "fabricators", even though the device or the technology isn't specifically mentioned in canon...

Agreed.

4) It's indeed curious that even Kirk doesn't have a personal food dispenser in his cabin. OTOH, Rand gets those trays from somewhere; perhaps there's a dispenser in each deck section anyway, plus a greater concentration in communal dining areas.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe even having such machinery in each section is overdoing it. Normally accessible rec rooms and mess halls would probably be sufficient. I would expect one near sickbay (though I can't recall even actually seeing one... but it seems reasonable). In case of emergencies when individual sections might be isolated, I can imagine there being lockers of emergency rations in every section. Something that requires less "I-hope-it's-still-working" technology.

Off the top of my head, what we do know about food service on the 1701 is....

--Doctor McCoy, Yeoman Rand, and Nurse Chapel are all seen carrying trays and delivering food to people from some remote source. No food slots are in evidence when this happens.

--There is a galley somewhere which is manned by a "Chief" whose voice sounds much like Gene Roddenberry's who was surprised to discover real turkeys in the ovens in "Charlie X." This tells us that there are ovens of a sort involved in food prep as well as at least a minor crew for human oversight as well as the fact that, at least for turkey (and presumably for other foods also) the usual practice is to utilize a synthetic meatloaf that is formed to resemble a variety of food.

--In "Balance of Terror" Rand offers to get Kirk some coffee from the galley.

--In "The Corbomite Maneuver" Rand brings up coffee to the bridge which she claims to have heated with a hand phaser. We find that McCoy assumed that the power was off in the galley. Though, if the galley power was off as an emergency measure due to combat conditions, or as a result of the doings of the Fesarius is left unclear. (While the Fesarius was shutting down Enterprise systems, the fact that McCoy already assumes the power was off in the galley might suggest it's a regular procedure to power down the food systems while on red alert. Though, perhaps he discovered the galley was unexpectedly shut down while escorting Bailey away from the bridge during the commercial break. Though, thanks to Sulu's countdown, we know he was only gone for about three minutes or less.)

I think the existence of a central galley is pretty well confirmed. That we only ever see food being delivered by crewmen carrying trays or out of food slots demonstrates that somehow that food is made in ovens in the galley (where ever that is) and is moved somehow to the food slots. The creators of the show, during the show's run in the 60s, explicitly stated their intent that there were mini-turbolifts involved somehow. We could retcon this by suggesting that it was really being transported into the food slots from the galley. Or we could REALLY retcon it by claiming they were replicators the whole time. But numerous references to a galley make it clear to me that whatever model you go with has to include it... unless you are a fan of retconning.

--Alex
 
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