Was Vina Fertile?

[maryh]

Just watched both parts of Menagerie last night - what a great episode. What I question is how they expected Pike and Vina to be the new Adam and Eve. When we see the real version of Vina, it looks like she is old and was put back together pretty poorly, and is rather unhealthy. To expect her to be able to reproduce to give the Talosians the human race that they needed appears to be impossible. A flaw in the plot?

 

[Christopher]

Vina did say "everything works." She was functional, just deformed. And she wasn't that old; as an adult crewwoman on the SS Columbia, stranded for 18 years, one might expect her to be in her early 40s, maybe more like 36 if the age of the illusory Vina matched her age at the time the ship crashed. Being fertile at that age is well within the realm of possibility.

Especially with medical assistance, which would be a given anyway. There's no way a gene pool of two could produce a sustainably diverse population. There would need to be considerable medical intervention to tweak the genes of offspring enough to provide sufficient diversity for viability.

 

[maryh]

Vina did say "everything works." She was functional, just deformed. And she wasn't that old; as an adult crewwoman on the SS Columbia, stranded for 18 years, one might expect her to be in her early 40s, maybe more like 36 if the age of the illusory Vina matched her age at the time the ship crashed. Being fertile at that age is well within the realm of possibility.

Especially with medical assistance, which would be a given anyway. There's no way a gene pool of two could produce a sustainably diverse population. There would need to be considerable medical intervention to tweak the genes of offspring enough to provide sufficient diversity for viability.

Okay, if she was less than 50 or so, then I'd accept that she could produce offspring - she just looked very old when they showed her true form.

I agree with the gene pool problem, but then again it leaves us with the usual problem of unequal technological advances. They would be able to tweak the genetics of the offspring, yet they couldn't grow another Vina instead of the deformed one? Would they need Pikes genetic input at all if they had those genetic capabilities?

 

[plynch]

Would they need Pikes genetic input at all if they had those genetic capabilities?

apparently

 

[Christopher]

Okay, if she was less than 50 or so, then I'd accept that she could produce offspring - she just looked very old when they showed her true form.

Somewhat old, perhaps.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/0x00/thecage448.jpg

I wouldn't call that very old. Take away the scarring and it could be an age makeup for someone playing maybe fifty-something; but when you consider the kind of life Vina's led, some premature aging isn't too hard to believe.

I agree with the gene pool problem, but then again it leaves us with the usual problem of unequal technological advances. They would be able to tweak the genetics of the offspring, yet they couldn't grow another Vina instead of the deformed one? Would they need Pikes genetic input at all if they had those genetic capabilities?

Those aren't the same level of technology, though. There's a difference between being able to make adjustments to the natural procreative process and being able to do without it altogether.

 

[maryh]

^^^
If they had never seen a human before they might not have known about the problems they would encounter by breeding with such a limited gene pool.

 

[Christopher]

^Yes, that's another possibility I was thinking of mentioning: that the Talosians may simply not have known how to breed a successful new population and were doomed to failure anyway. I mean, that principle would be as true of any other species as it is of humans. If they thought they only needed one of each sex to sustain a captive population of a given species, then they really didn't know what the hell they were doing.

 

[T'Girl]

It's difficult to imagine Vina carrying to full term, but there are tech ways around that.

Years later, given the radiation that Pike was exposed to, there would have been no children.

 

[TigerOfDarkness]

Just watched both parts of Menagerie last night - what a great episode. What I question is how they expected Pike and Vina to be the new Adam and Eve. When we see the real version of Vina, it looks like she is old and was put back together pretty poorly, and is rather unhealthy. To expect her to be able to reproduce to give the Talosians the human race that they needed appears to be impossible. A flaw in the plot?

It is a superb episode - one of TOS best and certainly GR's best.

However, one thing I wonder is: was Vina really disfigured at all? It could have been a Talosian illusion to convince Pike to let them keep her there (assuming she was even real). Her speach about "everything works but they had no guide..." could be illusory.

It seems rather strange that the basically humanoid and bi-laterally symetric Talosians really had no idea of what she was supposed to look like.

They were excellent mind readers - couldn't they have checked her memories?

 

[Christopher]

^Knowing what a body is supposed to look like and having the medical skill to make it look that way are two very different things. I know what a car is supposed to look like, but ask me to build one from a kit, without instructions, and you might end up with something rather irregular-looking and barely functional.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Fertile? No, but it wasn't like Pike was going to tell the Talosians; "She's still not pregnant, guess I'll have to keep at it Magistrate!"

 

[Ronald Held]

How good in genetics could they be if their society had been decaying technically for a long time?

 

[maryh]

How good in genetics could they be if their society had been decaying technically for a long time?

I think you are correct. The episode showed that our belief in the Talosians technological advancement was just an illusion too. They had decayed and were so addicted to illusion that they were incapable of producing much in reality anymore.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

After failing with Pike, Number One and the Yeoman, the Talosians didn't seem that put off kidnapping other races. They simply said that Humans, weren't the right species for them, not that they wouldn't ever find a decent fit IIRC.

Makes me wonder if they just tried and tried again, or just decided to lie back and rot while putting the last of their strength towards one final blissful self illusion.

 

[boobatuba]

There's no way a gene pool of two could produce a sustainably diverse population. There would need to be considerable medical intervention to tweak the genes of offspring enough to provide sufficient diversity for viability.

If they had never seen a human before they might not have known about the problems they would encounter by breeding with such a limited gene pool.

If they thought they only needed one of each sex to sustain a captive population of a given species, then they really didn't know what the hell they were doing.

I think all of you are forgetting...it somehow worked on Earth, once.

 

[Captrek]

If they thought they only needed one of each sex to sustain a captive population of a given species, then they really didn't know what the hell they were doing.

Blasphemy!

 

[Christopher]

I think all of you are forgetting...it somehow worked on Earth, once.

Of course it didn't, except in some ancient mythologies. While there is evidence that an ancient cataclysm may have reduced the human population base to a few thousand, and that reduction may actually have promoted new evolution. But that's still three or four orders of magnitude above a population base of two.

 

[boobatuba]

I think all of you are forgetting...it somehow worked on Earth, once.

Of course it didn't, except in some ancient mythologies. While there is evidence that an ancient cataclysm may have reduced the human population base to a few thousand, and that reduction may actually have promoted new evolution. But that's still three or four orders of magnitude above a population base of two.

Oh boy, the old creation vs. evolution debate...again!

Yeah, it's much more believable that human beings gradually evolved from apes into what we are today...and as they evolved they continued to procreate with "lower" species until enough had evolved to produce a stable gene pool. Then all the "in-between" species just *poof*...disappeared!

That's much more believable than Adam & Eve. Thanks.

 

[scotpens]

Yeah, it's much more believable that human beings gradually evolved from apes into what we are today...and as they evolved they continued to procreate with ‘lower’ species until enough had evolved to produce a stable gene pool. Then all the ‘in-between’ species just *poof*...disappeared!

Okay, so did Cain procreate with his mother or with his sister?

“. . . human beings gradually evolved from apes”?
“. . . “continued to procreate with ‘lower’ species”?

Statements like that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how evolution works. But that's a subject for another thread in another forum.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think all of you are forgetting...it somehow worked on Earth, once.

Of course it didn't, except in some ancient mythologies. While there is evidence that an ancient cataclysm may have reduced the human population base to a few thousand, and that reduction may actually have promoted new evolution. But that's still three or four orders of magnitude above a population base of two.

Oh boy, the old creation vs. evolution debate...again!

Yeah, it's much more believable that human beings gradually evolved from apes into what we are today...and as they evolved they continued to procreate with "lower" species until enough had evolved to produce a stable gene pool. Then all the "in-between" species just *poof*...disappeared!

That's much more believable than Adam & Eve. Thanks.

You're welcome.