Was there compulary service during the Dominion War?

[Danoz]

First of all, pardon the typo as I meant to type: "compulsory service" but you can't edit rushed titles :P.

I know the answer is "no." But... with "death lists" longer than an entire space station of people can count... how in the hell does Starfleet maintain recruitment during this time? Were there defectors? I know they mention "personnel shortages" but you have to wonder... why didn't Jake enlist during the war? I have logistical questions about how they maintained the human resources to keep this war going in, what is actually, a freerider society where you can employ yourself as a "bad artist" and have every individual need met to your own utopian paradise.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

There must have been a limited form of conscription

 

[Bones2]

Starfleet's big. It'd have been interesting to see the Feds nearly lose the war and resort to conscription or something though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Indeed...a nice way to see just how much that "utopian" society could really withstand.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

First of all, pardon the typo as I meant to type: "compulsory service" but you can't edit rushed titles :P.

I know the answer is "no." But... with "death lists" longer than an entire space station of people can count... how in the hell does Starfleet maintain recruitment during this time? Were there defectors? I know they mention "personnel shortages" but you have to wonder... why didn't Jake enlist during the war? I have logistical questions about how they maintained the human resources to keep this war going in, what is actually, a freerider society where you can employ yourself as a "bad artist" and have every individual need met to your own utopian paradise.

Why would they need conscription? I imagine there were plenty of recruits. After all, the Dominion wished to conquer them. It wasn't a border dispute or anything petty like that; they were being targeted for full-on invasion and conquest. You'll never run out of people willing to defend their homes by fighting in these circumstances. I imagine the harder the war got, the more people you had lined up to enlist. When Betazed fell, for example, I imagine floods of citizens on neighbouring Federation worlds went out to join the war effort.

Another important point is that the Federation is a free society. It is worth defending, worth risking one's life for. Forced conscription would undermine that. I for one would never fight for any nation that employed conscription, for a nation that refuses to accept my freedom and views me as, essentially, a slave. Where's the point in fighting to protect your children if the government views your children as simply further potential soldiers, o be placed in harms way themselves at the first opportunity? I imagine those fighting for the Federation fought for a love of freedom, not out of any form of primitive nationalism. Forced service is the Dominion and Cardassian way, not the way of the Federation.

You say, why didn't Jake enlist? Your reasoning appears to be, "well, he's young and healthy, so he should fight". That is not a very sensible view. Such thinking is what mires a people in conflict. When you have the expectation that your young people should be fighting, they cease being people in that nation's eyes, merely a resource to be used on a whim. The Federation is not the Dominion. Jake is not a Jem'Hadar. Conscription would undermine everything the Federation is, in my opinion. "Compulsory service" is simply a euphemism for "slavery".

Had the war gone on long enough, became serious enough, I imagine Jake would have enlisted, of his own free will, to defend his nation's freedoms- and (and this is of prime importance) his own. If he didn't have those freedoms, why would he be willing to fight? Where's the motivation, beyond "you have to", which isn't going to be enough to keep morale strong. Why support and fight for a nation that won't recognise your freedom? One of the major reasons it worked historically was/is because young men are told they're fighting for their oh-so-helpless and adoring woman-folk at home, who, they were told, needed them to protect them. These prejudices are gone in the 24th century, though. You don't have a whole bunch of people at home who "need" you to prove yourself by protecting them, so how do you maintain morale among those conscripted? The truth of their situation would be obvious to them.

So, I think conscription would both violate everything the Federation stands for, and be ineffective at producing well-balanced soldiers. I mean, if your free society is about to be conquered, the choice is obvious; enlist to protect those freedoms, or accept conquest. If you aren't free to begin with, the only motivation is petty nationalism or because you feel you have to prove yourself in some way.

As long as there were Federation citizens breathing, I don't think you'd be short of recruits. "Personnel shortages" I think translated as "trained personnel shortages". Getting recruits fit for starship duty, etc, was the problem, I think.

 

[Vonstadt]

Recruitment is rarely an issue with the 'barbarians at the gate'... so to speak.

Vons

 

[Navaros]

The question in the thread title is the kind of tough subject that Trek avoids addressing like the plague. Other such subjects include how the UT actually works (and why it is selective in what it translates), and how a society with no money actually works etc. etc.

 

[DevilEyes]

Deranged Nasat: great post.

So, I think conscription would both violate everything the Federation stands for, and be ineffective at producing well-balanced soldiers. I mean, if your free society is about to be conquered, the choice is obvious; enlist to protect those freedoms, or accept conquest. If you aren't free to begin with, the only motivation is petty nationalism or because you feel you have to prove yourself in some way.

Or the probably most common motivation: because they forced you to, and you didn't manage to escape, and did not want to go to jail.

One of the major reasons it worked historically was/is because young men are told they're fighting for their oh-so-helpless and adoring woman-folk at home, who, they were told, needed them to protect them. These prejudices are gone in the 24th century, though. You don't have a whole bunch of people at home who "need" you to prove yourself by protecting them, so how do you maintain morale among those conscripted? The truth of their situation would be obvious to them.

You're right that proving one's masculinity has been traditionally used to convince young men to fight in a war, though I'm not sure it's necessarily to "defend the women back home"... sometimes more in the vein of "you'll be considered a coward and a sissy if you don't fight".

And doesn't Israel have conscription of both men and women?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Deranged Nasat: great post.

Thank you!

So, I think conscription would both violate everything the Federation stands for, and be ineffective at producing well-balanced soldiers. I mean, if your free society is about to be conquered, the choice is obvious; enlist to protect those freedoms, or accept conquest. If you aren't free to begin with, the only motivation is petty nationalism or because you feel you have to prove yourself in some way.

Or the probably most common motivation: because they forced you to, and you didn't manage to escape, and did not want to go to jail.

Indeed.

One of the major reasons it worked historically was/is because young men are told they're fighting for their oh-so-helpless and adoring woman-folk at home, who, they were told, needed them to protect them. These prejudices are gone in the 24th century, though. You don't have a whole bunch of people at home who "need" you to prove yourself by protecting them, so how do you maintain morale among those conscripted? The truth of their situation would be obvious to them.

You're right that proving one's masculinity has been traditionally used to convince young men to fight in a war, though I'm not sure it's necessarily to "defend the women back home"... sometimes more in the vein of "you are a traitor and a sissy if you don't fight". And doesn't Israel have conscription of both men and women?

I believe you're right about Israel, although my knowledge of their culture is not good enough to allow me insight into why they defied convention in that way. I'm guessing they feel so threatened (rightly or not I can't say) that they wanted everyone ready to defend themselves. I don't know what justifications they use, though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

DN--I do have very serious doubts as to how responsive a self-indulgent society like the Federation would really be even in the face of a crisis. The US is bad enough; I can't imagine what the Federation would be like. I would certainly, if I were them, hold off on conscription as absolutely long as possible--but if it got so bad where recruitment was no longer meeting the needs of the military, then I don't know what else you're supposed to do...roll over and play dead? I don't think so. We're not talking about permanent, peacetime conscription or mandatory service like some countries do (and even that I am not personally bothered by--at least, not Israel-style where there is no gender discrimination in the process), but a temporary measure during a serious war.

You don't even have to send the conscripts to the front lines. Instead, my opinion is you should push as many experienced Starfleeters to the front, activate the reserve corps and equivalent of the National Guard, and have these volunteers go into the most dangerous positions, keeping back only what is required to ensure that some experience remains if you take a major loss, and what is necessary for an effective home guard should the Dominion break through the lines. Fill as many non-combat positions as possible with those who are conscripted; only after that should non-volunteers be sent to the front. A war effort, after all, is not just firing guns...there's a LOT of work that does not involve actually firing at the enemy that needs to be done in order for a military to work.

That might help balance Federation ideals a little more with the necessity of a draft, if you keep as many of the conscripts away from the front lines as possible.

AND YET--even that brings up a problem. If you know that waiting for the draft gets you a cushy assignment, why would you enlist?

That leaves you with only your original two options, again...either don't have conscription, ever, and just hope that it's enough and roll over if it isn't--or institute a gender-neutral draft once the need exceeds volunteer recruitment, where there is no preferential assignment and you go strictly based on a person's skills and experience. I STILL think that given educational levels in the Federation, you're going to be doing more than just generating "cannon fodder" and that only some of the conscripts would ever be sent to the front or put in combat positions, but I don't think that there'd ever be a way to guarantee that a conscript wouldn't be sent to the front without getting the exact opposite of the result you desire (more volunteer recruitment, less conscription).

ETA: DN--about Israel, the very existence of their nation is under constant threat, so yes...I think they want everyone to be able to defend themselves.

 

[DevilEyes]

As long as Federation mostly fought the war in space, I don't see why conscription would be 1) necessary, 2) helpful. I assume that most Federation citizens, those who did not attend the Academy and were not Starfleet professionals, would have no clue how to operate ships, fire photon phasers, etc. And we did not see that many land battles with Jem'Hadar to warrant a need for more soldiers than Starfleet already had. So, I think consription would only become an issue if the Dominion was actually invading Earth, Vulcan and other Federation planets.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, we know the Dominion did start to do exactly that--Betazed, I believe, was one of the core worlds of the Federation by the 24th century.

I'm also not sure we know what the extent of the land battles were (though I know the Federation was prepared to fight street by street on Cardassia Prime). Finally, I'm not sure that even everything aboard a starship is so far out of the educated citizen's grasp that it couldn't be learned.

 

[JB2005]

^ Well if it came down to it, verbal commands to the computer will apparently make the ship go...

 

[JB2005]

Sorry, double post...

 

[Timo]

One wonders whether Starfleet at war would be significantly more tasked than Starfleet at peace.

After all, the Trek galaxy is filled with weekly crises, and Starfleet is spread thin even at the best of times, most of its ships scattered on exploration errands. Yet if these crises are left on back burner for a while, and exploration is forgotten for a few years, Starfleet should be able to massively mobilize from within itself. The millions working for it in peacetime would simply work for it in wartime, in roles not all that dissimilar...

There might be some professions that would call for wartime specialists who have no peacetime employment - say, foot soldiers. But said specialists would probably have to be something other than raw recruits, since the job of a foot soldier would probably be the one most removed from peacetime UFP lives and professions. Much would depend on how many infantrymen and -women the UFP really employs. O'Brien used to be one, and there were mentions of infantry battles, but we never got a good idea of their true scope.

As for escalation in space combat, it seems unlikely that Starfleet would be capable of fielding significantly more ships in wartime than it fields in peacetime. Apparently, it takes years to build even the smallest starships, and during the entire DS9 coverage of the Dominion War, we only saw a single vessel that was said to have been built for said war - the tiny Sao Paulo. There'd not be major needs for extra personnel, then, either.

Interestingly, in "In the Pale Moonlight" we see casualty lists from aboard starships, and they never represent the total crew of a ship. Apparently, during the war, it was very typical for ships to lose part of their crew in combat yet survive to fight another day. So there might be a need for additional personnel even if the Fleet stayed a constant size...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

As for escalation in space combat, it seems unlikely that Starfleet would be capable of fielding significantly more ships in wartime than it fields in peacetime. Apparently, it takes years to build even the smallest starships, and during the entire DS9 coverage of the Dominion War, we only saw a single vessel that was said to have been built for said war - the tiny Sao Paulo. There'd not be major needs for extra personnel, then, either.

I'm not so sure about the timeframe for ship construction - I know original material said that it took a long time to construct Galaxy class ships, but I also remember Shelby saying that it would take less than a year to get the fleet back up to strength after Wolf 359. Not just numbers, but strength, meaning they'd be replacing the lost ships with vessels of similar or greater capabilities. I think the original intention from the producers was to consider ship construction a long and lengthy process, but later story developments called for a faster production rate, so they threw that idea out.

Even taking into account the possibility that Starfleet hauled a number of vessels out of mothballs for the war, the number of ships both seen and lost over the course of the Dominion War indicate, to me at least, that, even if Starfleet had previously held a 'take it slow, there's no rush' philosophy with ship construction, the discovery of the Borg would have made them think 'we need more ships and we need them out of the yards faster.' The Dominion don't even appear on the scene for another five years, so by then, any advanced ship production plans would already be in place if not already pumping out starships.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

I think part of the Federation charter states that conscription is not something that the Federation subscribes to... might be wrong on that one though.

Either way, don't forget that you don't have to be "in" starfleet to fight the Dominion. Betazed would hardly have just sat there after it was conquererd, I imagine that fighting a resistance force who can communicate telepathically would have been pretty tough...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

TR--Can you bring conclusive, canon proof to the table, that conscription is not allowed by Federation law or Starfleet regulation? If not, then that's just as much speculation as the idea that there WAS a draft.

 

[JohanKoch]

I strongly doubt there was conscription in the war.

First, as others have pointed out, the Federation is huge, with trillions of people to call upon. How many people does it take to crew a fleet of ships, even several thousand ships? You're still talking a fraction of the population. Also, starship crews need extensive training. It's not like a six-week boot camp will prepare you to be much use on a starship.

Secondly, despite episodes like "The Siege of AR558", I strongly doubt that ground combat by armies of minimally-trained grunts was a huge part of the war. Sure, it happened, but considering the high tech weapons of the 24th century, it seems ridiculous that any significant part of the war would be fought by World War One tactics of face-to-face combat. The one time you'd only really need ground troops is to re-take occupied worlds (and occupy enemy worlds, but that wasn't happening until the very end of the war).

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, we know the Dominion did start to do exactly that--Betazed, I believe, was one of the core worlds of the Federation by the 24th century.

I'm also not sure we know what the extent of the land battles were (though I know the Federation was prepared to fight street by street on Cardassia Prime). Finally, I'm not sure that even everything aboard a starship is so far out of the educated citizen's grasp that it couldn't be learned.

I would assume ground campaigns were very limited, basically centering around important infrastructure like the subspace relay on AR-558. Betazed is supposed to have surrendered as soon as the Nth Fleet (whatever it was) collapsed, and this is the correct thing to do, since the Jem'hadar's terms were either going to or had already begun eradicating populations from orbit.

On the other side, I imagine this was the usefulness of having the Klingons and Romulans as allies.

Why have a draft when you can just automate more and more functions on starships? Maintenance would suffer, but we've seen that crews of as little as one can actually run a 24th century ship. Given the advanced computers on the things, you could probably put a Galaxy in casualty mode and the other side wouldn't notice a significant drop-off in effectiveness.