Was the Enterprise D a gross misallocation?

[Mage]

Because it's been stated plenty of times during Star Trek, that Starfleet isn't a military.

But it is military. It's mission isn't offensive, but its structure is military. And despite Gene's objections, the TOS films (especially II, III, and VI) are pretty formal and militaristic.

You could think of it sort of like the post WWII Japanese military, which has to operate with strict constraints on the application of force.

Just because you think it is, doesn't mean it is. It is never stated to be a military force. Only fanreasoning says it is, canon sources don't. And in the end, that's all that matters. Headcanon is a nice thing, but doesn't 'make it so'.

You could structure a business like a military, give the head of the company the rank admiral, make the person in charge of day to day runnings the captain, his assistant the first officer. Go ahead. Just because it is then structrued as a military, still doesn't make it one.

 

[BillJ]

Just because you think it is, doesn't mean it is. It is never stated to be a military force. Only fanreasoning says it is, canon sources don't. And in the end, that's all that matters. Headcanon is a nice thing, but doesn't 'make it so'.

Starfleet is the defensive arm of the Federation. I don't think they need to come right out and say their the military to be able to comfortably interpret that they are the military. Kirk calls it a combined service when asked in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", they are shown to have contingencies and capabilities to end all life on a world in "A Taste of Armageddon", Starfleet reports directly to the Federation government (multiple episodes across all the series), they carry out Federation foreign policy (multiple episodes across all the series), Kirk calls himself "a soldier, not a diplomat" in "Errand of Mercy", they carry out war games in "The Ultimate Computer" and "Peak Performance" and were also charged with defending the Federation from numerous enemies including the Borg, "Best of Both Worlds I" and "The Search".

I'm honestly not sure how anyone can interpret Starfleet as anything but the military?

 

[TimeLord1965]

The Duras Sisters had control of Geordi's visual implants. They were able to see what he saw in Engineering, and when he got to the shield readouts showing the shield modulation codes, they quickly gave the orders to program their torpedoes with the Enterprise-D's shield information and fired at the strategic points of the ship. This is the only reason the Enterprise-D was destroyed so easily. Intelligence was infiltrated!

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It's hard to argue when the thing that really destroyed the Enterprise-D was bad writing.

That and the model was a pain in the ass to shoot for films since it was designed for TV where it wouldn't need as much detail and have to be positioned in different ways than for a film.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The Duras Sisters had control of Geordi's visual implants. They were able to see what he saw in Engineering, and when he got to the shield readouts showing the shield modulation codes, they quickly gave the orders to program their torpedoes with the Enterprise-D's shield information and fired at the strategic points of the ship. This is the only reason the Enterprise-D was destroyed so easily. Intelligence was infiltrated!

Regardless of the inside info the Duras sisters had it wouldn't have mattered if Riker had rotated the shields (a SOP since the Borg) and/or opened fire with all weapons non stop until the BOP's presumably rather weak shields collapsed.

Of course the writers decided to make everyone on the Enterprise stupid for the sake of destroying the E-D

That battle would have been the real world equivalent if, during WWII, a 7,000 ton Japanese destroyer with 5 inch guns had somehow surprised a 45,000 ton American battleship with 16 inch guns, and pumped several five inch rounds into it and the captain, instead of ordering the main battery trained on the destroyer and blowing it the hell out of the water, decided to run away and let the destroyer keep shooting at it until it hit a vital area of the battleship and destroyed it.

 

[USS KG5]

That battle would have been the real world equivalent if, during WWII, a 7,000 ton Japanese destroyer with 5 inch guns had somehow surprised a 45,000 ton American battleship with 16 inch guns, and pumped several five inch rounds into it and the captain, instead of ordering the main battery trained on the destroyer and blowing it the hell out of the water, decided to run away and let the destroyer keep shooting at it until it hit a vital area of the battleship and destroyed it.

How about torpedoes from the Destroyer? A surprise salvo of those would lead to one very dead battleship, especially the nasty Japanese ones!

I'm not excusing Generations rather cheapo battle scene, or the lack of thought (as I've often said ONE LINE of dialogue would have stopped this whole debate) but in the real world little ships have often sucker punched big ones.

 

[Ithekro]

Actaully it would be a 2,000 ton destroyer, and at that close range, could totally sink an American battleship with an accurate torpedo spread. A Kagero-class destroyer, like say Yukikaze with a spread of eight "Long Lance" torpedoes at 1,000 yards, at night? Against USS Alabama? In the Solomons? I wouldn't want to be inside that battleship when those torpedoes hit. The 5 inch guns would just be damaging places on the superstructure, starting fires, and keep the men supressed. The big guns might not be able to track as destroyer that close. I know the Japanese heavy cruisers couldn't track American destroyer when they got really close at the Battle of Samar.

Remember that the original concept behind the torpedo boat and later evolution into the what use to be called the torpedo boat destroyer was that the torpedo of the 20th century could sink a battleship cheaply. Several generations of tech went into making it so the battleships could stand off away from torpedo range and develop countermessure defensese in case of being hit. But torpedo design also was done to counter these counters. The Long Lance (Type 93) torpedoes were designed to be long ranged, very fast, very deadly, and nearly invisable (almost no wake).

Going back to the 24th century, the Bird of Prey, even one that is several decades old, is a competent combat ship. The Rutarran is seen to be an older ship, and yet it later functions as the Flagship of the Nineth Fleet with many battle honors. We always like to sell the Bird of Prey short, but it was designed as a warship, and the Duras, being like they are, would have their shields beefed up to stand up to larger ships. That they gain a massive advantage by being able to bypass the Enterprise's shields (Federation starships have a glass jaw without their shields).

 

[jimbotron]

It's hard to argue when the thing that really destroyed the Enterprise-D was bad writing.

Some of the worst. The Enterprise D destruction in Generations was nothing but FILLER to pad out the film. It had no bearing on the plot of the film. What a contrast to Star Trek III. Writers and producers just wanted to get their money's worth blowing up the sets that they had to dismantle anyway.

 

[BillJ]

It's hard to argue when the thing that really destroyed the Enterprise-D was bad writing.

That and the model was a pain in the ass to shoot for films since it was designed for TV where it wouldn't need as much detail and have to be positioned in different ways than for a film.

I'm pretty sure being hard to shoot had nothing to do with it. They originally wanted to blow it up in season six and simply didn't have the money to do it. It felt more like they were trying to rub out the Roddenberry influence on the franchise by destroying the ship and killing Kirk.

The Enterprise-D looked spectacular on the big screen. Many of the shots used in Generations were from the TV series.

 

[jimbotron]

The Enterprise-D looked spectacular on the big screen. Many of the shots used in Generations were from the TV series.

Just two shots. The rest were new model or CGI shots.

 

[MacLeod]

The Duras Sisters had control of Geordi's visual implants. They were able to see what he saw in Engineering, and when he got to the shield readouts showing the shield modulation codes, they quickly gave the orders to program their torpedoes with the Enterprise-D's shield information and fired at the strategic points of the ship. This is the only reason the Enterprise-D was destroyed so easily. Intelligence was infiltrated!

True, but that had to wait until Geordi looked at a particular readout, and as others have pointed out all they had to do was the modulate the shields like they do when fighting the Borg. Sure they didn't know how the shields had been penetrated but you try the simple solution first i.e modulating the shields. Besides they didn't need all that just have had Soran install some new time of weapon remember initally Federtation Shields where uselss against Dominion Weaponary.

 

[kkt]

But for a contrary example of how tough WW II battleships could be, look at the Bismark. Half a dozen torpedo hits, about 400 hits from battleship main guns (not counting smaller guns), damage from divebombers, but she didn't sink until her crew scuttled her.

 

[Ithekro]

The British were fighting too close for battleship on battleship to sink Bismarck. You can't sink a ship unless it floods, and most of the holes were above the water line.

The airplane caused damage (torpedoes, not dive bombers) was mininal but catastrophic...as it jammed the rudder.

The British torpedoes are not nearly as powerful as the Japanese torpedes, and Bismarck was built a bit better in terms of being able to handle torpedo hits.

The American battleships? Not quite as well protected against torpedoes. Just lucky. The Japanese ships were just about as bad, just with far inferior damage control practices on average.

A Galaxy-class starship seems to be designed to take punishment via having its shields up. While they can take some damage, the warp core and nacelles seem to be weak points that are susceptible to Klingon weaponry. More so that others. Even Dominion weapons seem to do less that Klingon weapons against a Galaxy-class ship.

 

[BillJ]

The Enterprise-D looked spectacular on the big screen. Many of the shots used in Generations were from the TV series.

Just two shots. The rest were new model or CGI shots.

I may have overstated... but I'm pretty sure there's more than two shots reused from the series.

 

[Marsden]

Just because you think it is, doesn't mean it is. It is never stated to be a military force. Only fanreasoning says it is, canon sources don't. And in the end, that's all that matters. Headcanon is a nice thing, but doesn't 'make it so'.

Starfleet is the defensive arm of the Federation. I don't think they need to come right out and say their the military to be able to comfortably interpret that they are the military. Kirk calls it a combined service when asked in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", they are shown to have contingencies and capabilities to end all life on a world in "A Taste of Armageddon", Starfleet reports directly to the Federation government (multiple episodes across all the series), they carry out Federation foreign policy (multiple episodes across all the series), Kirk calls himself "a soldier, not a diplomat" in "Errand of Mercy", they carry out war games in "The Ultimate Computer" and "Peak Performance" and were also charged with defending the Federation from numerous enemies including the Borg, "Best of Both Worlds I" and "The Search".

I'm honestly not sure how anyone can interpret Starfleet as anything but the military?

I think only people that don't know what military means? Such as those that think it only means a bunch of killers that wear the same clothes.

Of course the writers decided to make everyone on the Enterprise stupid for the sake of destroying the E-D.

And the decision to reuse Chang's BoP explosion, verbatim, right from the previous movie, too.

Talk about a cheapo way to go.

When they reused all of the Klingon footage from TMP in the simulator in ST II, it was framed differently and wasn't so blatently obvious, but that explosion was just stock footage and it showed.

 

[Keith1701]

Enterprise D was a great ship!!!

 

[jimbotron]

The Enterprise-D looked spectacular on the big screen. Many of the shots used in Generations were from the TV series.

Just two shots. The rest were new model or CGI shots.

I may have overstated... but I'm pretty sure there's more than two shots reused from the series.

These two:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/generationshd/generationshd0978.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/generationshd/generationshd1421.jpg

 

[Go-Captain]

The Galaxy class was a flawed design, as shown by how easily it almost blew up multiple times, thanks to its extremely sensitive warp core, warp plasma system, and warp engines. However, by DS9 the flaws seem to have been worked out, as we only ever see the U.S.S. Odyssey blown up.

After that, Galaxy-class ships are used as battleships and we never see one blown up ever again. Additionally, every Starfleet ship we see destroyed gets mission killed, rather than having a warp core breach. Miranda-class ships died in droves, but were always left with gaping hulls, rather than being vaporized. Over all, that fits better with the remains of Wolf 359, further showing sensitive warp drives are something isolated to the Galaxy-class.

That being said, the Galaxy-class was a good ship concept. It allows for crews with families to live in a town like setting for years on end, without the need for returning home. Even a ship full of single people wouldn't be able to maintain a mission years on end without any hope of leaving, but the vast amount of people, especially those not required to follow the informal military structure, mitigates the issue with variety.

The ship does face danger, but the story of Star Trek is danger can arrive anywhere and kill millions without a sound. Facing it head on might be even more dangerous, but everyone there knows what they're getting into, and by knowingly searching for the unknown they can be more ready than someone assuming their safe on a planet.

Regardless, Picard never liked having families, let alone children, on his ship. Part of that was because he didn't like children, some because he didn't like them or anyone outside the actual crew being in danger. It probably would be better not having families on board, but like I wrote above, the mission duration would have to be a year at most.

Did we see any ships other than Defiant class and the Enterprise E fire Quantum Torpedoes?

The U.S.S. Lakota is stated as having quantum torpedoes. It underwent significant upgrades before fighting the U.S.S. Defiant in DS9: "Homefront." Neither crew wanted to kill the other so they were both pulling punches, but the over all impression is both ships are equal. Quantum torpedoes get stated as something which, if used, would win the battle for either ship.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The Enterprise-D wasn't a flawed design, but she was frequently put in tough situations that would probably destroy a lesser ship. In that regard, the Enterprise-D was incredibly resilient and maybe more than most ships. But no starship is perfect, nor invincible--even the most powerful vessel can be taken down with just one well-placed hit.

 

[T'Girl]

True, but that had to wait until Geordi looked at a particular readout ..

Or until Geordi merely swept his line of sight across the room while the readout was in view, he really didn't need to stare directly at it.

I think only people that don't know what military means? Such as those that think it only means a bunch of killers that wear the same clothes.

Because Starfleet officers don't kill people, while wearing the same clothes?