Near the end of the episode Contagion, Picard seemed to doubt the idea that Iconians were conquerors and seemed to think that maybe their enemies destroyed them because they "hated what they did not understand". However Star Trek Online (which I'm not quite sure is in canon) made the Iconians into one of the greatest threats the galaxy had ever seen. Do you think Picard was right or wrong about the Iconians?
Was Picard right or wrong about the Iconians?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
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There's nothing to indicate either way whether the Iconians were conquerers or explorers.
There's nothing to indicate either way whether the Iconians were conquerers or explorers.
...I guess some answers might be found at those locations that the Iconian portal showed as being inhabited (the plaza that looks like Toronto City Hall, say).
Then again, supposedly, it has been hundreds of millennia since the Iconians bowed out. One would expect most of their destinations to have moved on, too, one way or another: any destination showing civilization would probably have been barren nature back then, and vice versa. Perhaps one should look for clues at the wilderness scenes?
Or indoors scenes, as the other Iconian portal from DS9 "To the Death" was found inside a building that the heroes and villains considered to be an Iconian-built structure. Although they, too, might have been wrong about that.
It is interesting that the reputation of these ancients lives on somehow, even when our heroes can point to no written sources. Word-of-mouth from beyond half a million years? Very long-lived witnesses?
Timo Saloniemi
Then again, supposedly, it has been hundreds of millennia since the Iconians bowed out. One would expect most of their destinations to have moved on, too, one way or another: any destination showing civilization would probably have been barren nature back then, and vice versa. Perhaps one should look for clues at the wilderness scenes?
Or indoors scenes, as the other Iconian portal from DS9 "To the Death" was found inside a building that the heroes and villains considered to be an Iconian-built structure. Although they, too, might have been wrong about that.
It is interesting that the reputation of these ancients lives on somehow, even when our heroes can point to no written sources. Word-of-mouth from beyond half a million years? Very long-lived witnesses?
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah. But we have two rather different fates there: one falls when homeworld is bombarded, another falls when homeworld is consumed by nova.
At first glance, the former is a more "realistic" fate: a star empire would have fallback worlds in case the homeworld was lost to a natural disaster, but an enemy capable of bombarding the homeworld would not leave any fallback worlds available to its victims. But we don't have to think that the Tkon empire fell overnight at the loss of the hubworld, and we can well speculate that such loss would be disastrous on many levels besides the obvious.
The Tkon and the Iotians are separated by some 400,000 years. One wonders how many such "important" empires there have been in the Milky Way in the past million years. A hundred? A thousand? How would the Federation rank up there? Not yet registering?
Timo Saloniemi
At first glance, the former is a more "realistic" fate: a star empire would have fallback worlds in case the homeworld was lost to a natural disaster, but an enemy capable of bombarding the homeworld would not leave any fallback worlds available to its victims. But we don't have to think that the Tkon empire fell overnight at the loss of the hubworld, and we can well speculate that such loss would be disastrous on many levels besides the obvious.
The Tkon and the Iotians are separated by some 400,000 years. One wonders how many such "important" empires there have been in the Milky Way in the past million years. A hundred? A thousand? How would the Federation rank up there? Not yet registering?
Timo Saloniemi
Since I consider it extremely unlikely that there will be anything officially canon to disprove the STO timeline, I'm going with Picard was incorrect. To be fair though it had been many thousands of years since Iconia was bombed back to the stone age. It's possible that at the time of their empire they were peaceful, only to turn away from that over time.
Iotians? Am I missing something? I thought Bela Oxmyx just wanted a slice of the pie. Not the whole menu.
Try the also-not-canon novelverse, which has been going since the 90's, and features entirely different Iconians in the Gateways books.
Depending on how long they were around, they easily could have been both at different points in their history. Or both at the same time.
Non-canon TrekLit again, but wasn't there a modern true Iconian character in some novel, not any of the 'Gateways' books? I swear I remember this character, but Googling isn't helping me at all. I can't remember much about the story he was involved in, or I could probably remember which book it was.
I'm gonna say Picard was right, if only to spite STO.
Maybe they started as conquerers to build their Empire and then turned into explorers to maintain it. You know, like humans.
@Timo
There was probably archaeological evidence of an ancient Empire that traveled the galaxy some mysterious way and they were called Iconians because the archaeologist who first wrote a book about them was Mike Iconis.
@Timo
There was probably archaeological evidence of an ancient Empire that traveled the galaxy some mysterious way and they were called Iconians because the archaeologist who first wrote a book about them was Mike Iconis.
Maybe it was questionable. Maybe they didn't have a Prime Directive. They introduced new ideas and technologies to other worlds, drastically increasing their production and life expectancy, but also totally blowing away their previous way of life. Maybe they provided information-age technologies to hunter gatherer societies, causing them to experience the introduction of agriculture, industrial production, information technology, and space travel all within one lifetime. Many Iconians benefitted from this. To those who had their Olive Tree blown away by Lexuses, it seemed like the Iconians were ruthless invaders.Maybe they started as conquerers to build their Empire and then turned into explorers to maintain it. You know, like humans.
Because Star Trek is fiction, and any writer could potentially be hired by Star Trek rights owners to create stories (e.g., movies) for the canon, I feel perfectly able to say what is right and wrong, as is anyone else. With that in mind:
Picard was right. It is perfectly believable that even the benign, peaceful, benevolent - the curious - could be brutally attacked by ignorant bullies and the jealous simply for what they are. Or... What would you do if people starting magically showing up in your living room? They do nothing; just observe you for a while, say nothing, then leave. Over and over again. Especially, metaphorically speaking, living rooms in states like Florida or Texas. I can see "Stand Your Ground" laws extended by paranoid races to the utter prevention of such future visits even though no harm would ever have come to those in the living rooms.
Picard was right. It is perfectly believable that even the benign, peaceful, benevolent - the curious - could be brutally attacked by ignorant bullies and the jealous simply for what they are. Or... What would you do if people starting magically showing up in your living room? They do nothing; just observe you for a while, say nothing, then leave. Over and over again. Especially, metaphorically speaking, living rooms in states like Florida or Texas. I can see "Stand Your Ground" laws extended by paranoid races to the utter prevention of such future visits even though no harm would ever have come to those in the living rooms.
Historical experience tells us they must have conquered at some point in their history to become such a force in the galaxy. Just, we have no information to tell us whether they used their gateways for conquest or exploration. All we know is they were wiped out for it.
The Iconian Gates we have seen look to be mostly single being transporters- a line of people could use one but anything like bringing a ship or invasion equipment does not seem practical. For quite exploration they would be ideal since there is nothing needed at the other end. A culture could be disrupted by knowledge shared by an Iconian, but conquering a planet would be difficult in the conventional sense. I could see a planet reacting in fear with the Iconians just appearing and disappearing and going nuts trying to find out what was going on and putting an end to it.
Why would you need a stand your ground or any other kind of law to not want aliens (or anyone else) watch you while you're in the shower or on the toilet or any other thing you may want to do in privacy in your own home?
Any type of technology can be used for good or bad. If they can teleport individuals then they can teleport bombs, biological agents, or any other weapons of mass destruction they could have invented. Or they may have just visited, took notes and left. The problem really arrises from establishing a whole race or species of people all did exactly the same thing. Peoples are rarely so monolithic in nature and some could have been peaceful exploreres and others conquerors. They could have been in it just to see what they could get away with, let's go spook some primitives could be their "tipping cows"
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I guess we're lucky the cows are more tolerant here.
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