Was Picard being forced to live out an entire lifetime...

[Kobayshi Maru]

Just to be clear here, "these people" set up the probe the way they did, and they wrote the program.

Selfish bastards.

A planetary civilization can hardly be called selfish especially since they were all going to die with no hope of having any legacy whatsoever. What they did may have been bizarre and impractical but it was in no way, selfish.

But it was designed to be a violation of a sentient being. There's no other way to interpret their actions. They could've sent books or could've allowed people to make the decision as to whether or not they want to live the life of a Kataan.

That's a minor disturbance at worst, especially when you consider that star fleet captains like Janeway give decisive advantages to pestilences like the borg just to satisfy their selfish desire of getting home a little quicker and the worst part is that they aren't even BLAMED FOR THAT!! This is another case of a beam in your eye and a mote in your neighbor's eye.

 

[Makarov]

But it was designed to be a violation of a sentient being. There's no other way to interpret their actions. They could've sent books or could've allowed people to make the decision as to whether or not they want to live the life of a Kataan.

I think it's not so black & white. A human offering a handshake could be torture from some alien's perspective. I think under the circumstances of a dying alien race about to be forgotten we can forgive them. Picard certainly did.

For all we know this is how their culture reads books. Or the probe was meant to be friendlier but malfunctioned, or hadn't been properly adjusted for humans, or was running low on power, or maybe they were desperate and didn't know how to design it as such.

If we do take what we saw of this race from Picard's fake life as true, then we know they didn't design it to be a hostile action. Especially if they wanted him to give their planet a good review on yelp.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

...
If we do take what we saw of this race from Picard's fake life as true, then we know they didn't design it to be a hostile action. Especially if they wanted him to give their planet a good review on yelp.

Precisely!

 

[T'Girl]

... we can forgive them. Picard certainly did.

In what episode did this happen?

Picard did show a interest in the flute, being able to play it. But he never verbalize any "forgiveness" for what was done to him.

 

[Makarov]

When he brings it up in Lessons he talks longingly about the experience, no anger whatsoever. He shares it with his new girlfriend as a positive experience like its a sacred part of him. So I think it's safe to say he didn't hold any grudge about it. Not to mention his immediate reaction to finding out in Inner Light was one of amazement, not being hurt by it.

 

[Ithekro]

Because, in the end, all he had was memories. Probably no more than we get really. So in reality, for Picard, it was just 30 minutes of dreaming the high points of 40 years. He might have gotten the full of that, but I doubt whoever programmed that thing could follow the orginally man for forty years and record every detail. It could seem real, but the reality is that it couldn't put all that into his head. Not 40 years of every second of a man's life. Picard would get enough to remember them, know them, know they were real at some point in time, and be able to understand their culture. Not much more than that.

Thirty minutes or so of sleep is not enough to make him unfit to command a starship.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

In spite of all that's been said, especially by the people who manifestly disagree with that assessment, I am still convinced that if Picard had been completely uncooperative then the program seeing that it had become pointless would have ended and released Picard without so much as a headache. They really seemed like that kind of people.

 

[BillJ]

In spite of all that's been said, especially by the people who manifestly disagree with that assessment, I am still convinced that if Picard had been completely uncooperative then the program seeing that it had become pointless would have ended and released Picard without so much as a headache. They really seemed like that kind of people.

I don't know? You may think that but when someone tried to externally cut it off, it was going to allow Picard to die rather than let him go.

 

[Anwar]

That may have been because Picard had accepted the Probe by then (or at least was not resisting). If he'd truly been resisting the Probe and not accepted it, then it might've allowed them to terminate the contact.

 

[T'Girl]

That may have been because Picard had accepted the Probe by then (or at least was not resisting). If he'd truly been resisting the Probe and not accepted it, then it might've allowed them to terminate the contact.

Picard was "living" a year a minute, by the time they attempt to end the transmission Picard had (from his prospective) been in the program for years.

So I think it's safe to say he didn't hold any grudge about it.

I don't agree with your interpretation, Picard said that it was an important experience in his life, but where are you seeing forgiveness?

There's a very good chance that the wife, the children, the grandchildren were not based on real people, they were fictitious characters created for the program. Picard's "character" the same, not a real person. Picard must realize this.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

That may have been because Picard had accepted the Probe by then (or at least was not resisting). If he'd truly been resisting the Probe and not accepted it, then it might've allowed them to terminate the contact.

That's exactly it. By the time they first attempted to sever the link, they were acting in fact against Picard's wishes. It was obvious to me that they were the ones doing the wrong thing. If Picard had rejected the program and refused to play along the link would have been terminated, within seconds, maybe less than ten seconds.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

That may have been because Picard had accepted the Probe by then (or at least was not resisting). If he'd truly been resisting the Probe and not accepted it, then it might've allowed them to terminate the contact.

Picard was "living" a year a minute, by the time they attempt to end the transmission Picard had (from his prospective) been in the program for years.

So I think it's safe to say he didn't hold any grudge about it.

I don't agree with your interpretation, Picard said that it was an important experience in his life, but where are you seeing forgiveness?

There's a very good chance that the wife, the children, the grandchildren were not based on real people, they were fictitious characters created for the program. Picard's "character" the same, not a real person. Picard must realize this.

The point was to make him experience their culture for a lifetime (or a big chunk of a lifetime), not to live the life of a real person.

 

[BillJ]

That may have been because Picard had accepted the Probe by then (or at least was not resisting). If he'd truly been resisting the Probe and not accepted it, then it might've allowed them to terminate the contact.

That's exactly it. By the time they first attempted to sever the link, they were acting in fact against Picard's wishes. It was obvious to me that they were the ones doing the wrong thing. If Picard had rejected the program and refused to play along the link would have been terminated, within seconds, maybe less than ten seconds.

I think you're making up a narrative that doesn't exist in the story to make yourself feel better about it.

The probe drills into Picard without asking permission, then was going to exterminate Picard if the link was severed. Those are the facts of the episode.

They don't ask him to participate. They make him believe he has been sick and his life before was a delusion...

ELINE: Well. finally. How are you feeling? Kamin, can you answer me?
PICARD: What is this place?
ELINE: You're still feverish.
PICARD: Computer, freeze programme. Computer, end programme.
ELINE: Kamin.
PICARD: Picard to Enterprise.
ELINE: Kamin, please don't get up yet. You're still not well.
PICARD: I asked you, what is this place?
ELINE: This is your home, of course.
PICARD: Am I a prisoner here?
ELINE: Please, dear, you've had a high fever for three days. You mustn't push yourself too quickly. Kamin? You really shouldn't go outside.

PICARD: Are you in charge here?
BATAI: In charge?
PICARD: I want to be returned to my ship immediately.
BATAI: What ship is that?
PICARD: Please, just tell me, what is this place? Where am I?
BATAI: The fever. It's taken your memory.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

That may have been because Picard had accepted the Probe by then (or at least was not resisting). If he'd truly been resisting the Probe and not accepted it, then it might've allowed them to terminate the contact.

That's exactly it. By the time they first attempted to sever the link, they were acting in fact against Picard's wishes. It was obvious to me that they were the ones doing the wrong thing. If Picard had rejected the program and refused to play along the link would have been terminated, within seconds, maybe less than ten seconds.

I think you're making up a narrative that doesn't exist in the story to make yourself feel better about it.

The probe drills into Picard without asking permission, then was going to exterminate Picard if the link was severed. Those are the facts of the episode.

They don't ask him to participate. They make him believe he has been sick and his life before was a delusion...

ELINE: Well. finally. How are you feeling? Kamin, can you answer me?
PICARD: What is this place?
ELINE: You're still feverish.
PICARD: Computer, freeze programme. Computer, end programme.
ELINE: Kamin.
PICARD: Picard to Enterprise.
ELINE: Kamin, please don't get up yet. You're still not well.
PICARD: I asked you, what is this place?
ELINE: This is your home, of course.
PICARD: Am I a prisoner here?
ELINE: Please, dear, you've had a high fever for three days. You mustn't push yourself too quickly. Kamin? You really shouldn't go outside.

PICARD: Are you in charge here?
BATAI: In charge?
PICARD: I want to be returned to my ship immediately.
BATAI: What ship is that?
PICARD: Please, just tell me, what is this place? Where am I?
BATAI: The fever. It's taken your memory.

I think you're deliberately ignoring the point I am making for reasons of your own.

The point is that after a while Picard stopped resisting and accepted the new reality. If he had kept that attitude for a while, ( a long while in the program, a very short while in reality),
seeing that it was pointless to continue the program would have terminated, since Picard started cooperating and acting as if he was a member of that community then the program refused to end by the actions of someone ELSE than Picard.

End of story.

 

[BillJ]

I think you're deliberately ignoring the point I am making for reasons of your own.

The point is that after a while Picard stopped resisting and accepted the new reality. If he had kept that attitude for a while, ( a long while in the program, a very short while in reality),
seeing that it was pointless to continue the program would have terminated, since Picard started cooperating and acting as if he was a member of that community then the program refused to end by the actions of someone ELSE than Picard.

End of story.

So rape is okay so long as the woman quits fighting sometime during the act?

Picard had no choice in the matter. He was told, as shown in the dialogue, that his prior life was a delusion caused by sickness.

You're saying because he quit fighting it that it was somehow implicit consent for the probe to continue and even kill him if interrupted. That is simply insane.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I think you're deliberately ignoring the point I am making for reasons of your own.

The point is that after a while Picard stopped resisting and accepted the new reality. If he had kept that attitude for a while, ( a long while in the program, a very short while in reality),
seeing that it was pointless to continue the program would have terminated, since Picard started cooperating and acting as if he was a member of that community then the program refused to end by the actions of someone ELSE than Picard.

End of story.

So rape is okay so long as the woman quits fighting sometime during the act?

Picard had no choice in the matter. He was told, as shown in the dialogue, that his prior life was a delusion caused by sickness.

You're saying because he quit fighting it that it was somehow implicit consent for the probe to continue and even kill him if interrupted. That is simply insane.

I don't agree with your abuse of the word "rape". Picard wasn't raped. He was deceived and told that he had that other life but there was nothing violent or hateful about the life they proposed, in fact it was probably attuned to Picard's personality. It's likely that someone else, Riker for example, would have had a completely different (simulated) life.

The life he led was in large part under his control. The telescope he built for example or raising his daughter to be a scientist were of his own doing not the program's.


Picard wasn't raped, he was proposed that other life and he accepted it. If he had rejected any attempts at convincing him the program would have ended. That seems obvious.

 

[Taelon]

Picard was "living" a year a minute, by the time they attempt to end the transmission Picard had (from his prospective) been in the program for years.

Could it be possible that Picard was simply having a particularly vivid dream, and the technology was allowing him perfect recall of that dream world.

Time jumps can happen in dreams and the subconscious mind easily fills in the blanks. For example, Donna, in the Doctor Who episode "Forest of the Dead" (the second half of "Silence in the Library").

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Picard was "living" a year a minute, by the time they attempt to end the transmission Picard had (from his prospective) been in the program for years.

Could it be possible that Picard was simply having a particularly vivid dream, and the technology was allowing him perfect recall of that dream world.

Time jumps can happen in dreams and the subconscious mind easily fills in the blanks. For example, Donna, in the Doctor Who episode "Forest of the Dead" (the second half of "Silence in the Library").

You could be right. Haven't we all experienced dreams where months or even years pass and somehow we seem to buy it? I know I have.

 

[Makarov]

Picard knew his family was fake but it was "absolutely real" to him, and through them he understood why they launched the probe. So he loved his fake family and also the culture. There's little to indicate that he held it against them, in fact while he was in the dream he was actually pushing the government to build stuff and was concerned for the future of their culture. He keeps the flute and shares it only in other intimate moments. So understanding and moving on is pretty close to forgiveness.

Now you could say he was brainwashed into loving them, but that's a pretty negative way to view this first contact. After all Q told him exploring space isn't as important as exploring possibilities of existence.

This discussion shows there would have been a lot they could have done with a follow up episode or two... but as it is, the show doesn't portray it as a negative experience for him.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Picard knew his family was fake but it was "absolutely real" to him, and through them he understood why they launched the probe. So he loved his fake family and also the culture. There's little to indicate that he held it against them, in fact while he was in the dream he was actually pushing the government to build stuff and was concerned for the future of their culture. He keeps the flute and shares it only in other intimate moments. So understanding and moving on is pretty close to forgiveness.

Now you could say he was brainwashed into loving them, but that's a pretty negative way to view this first contact. After all Q told him exploring space isn't as important as exploring possibilities of existence.

This discussion shows there would have been a lot they could have done with a follow up episode or two... but as it is, the show doesn't portray it as a negative experience for him.

You know I wouldn't be surprised if the flute had been replicated to indulge Picard and give him a keepsake and not the other way around, IE the flute preexisting his dream and being somehow forced upon him.