Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

[CoveTom]

That would have been a distinct improvement, yes. Something that the TOS films didn't do. Kirk's final answer to the Kobayashi Maru, when you can no longer cheat death. Oh, if only.

It's arguably what Generations did at the beginning....

Yes, except that Kirk didn't have any clue he was about to die. His intent was to rig the deflector and get the ship out of there intact.

My thought is that it would have been very dramatic, and a very poignant moment, for Kirk to realize that he was in a no-win scenario, the very scenario he had always denied could exist, and make a final, deliberate sacrifice of himself so that others might live. In a sense, he would beat the no-win scenario, but only by sacrificing himself.

And, yes, one could argue that story arc had already been done in TWOK with Spock. But (1) Spock never had a problem accepting that there are no-win scenarios like Kirk, and (2) Spock was resurrected, meaning it really wasn't a no-win scenario.

 

[sonak]

That would have been a distinct improvement, yes. Something that the TOS films didn't do. Kirk's final answer to the Kobayashi Maru, when you can no longer cheat death. Oh, if only.

It's arguably what Generations did at the beginning....

Yes, except that Kirk didn't have any clue he was about to die. His intent was to rig the deflector and get the ship out of there intact.

My thought is that it would have been very dramatic, and a very poignant moment, for Kirk to realize that he was in a no-win scenario, the very scenario he had always denied could exist, and make a final, deliberate sacrifice of himself so that others might live. In a sense, he would beat the no-win scenario, but only by sacrificing himself.

And, yes, one could argue that story arc had already been done in TWOK with Spock. But (1) Spock never had a problem accepting that there are no-win scenarios like Kirk, and (2) Spock was resurrected, meaning it really wasn't a no-win scenario.

it's interesting that they gave Kirk a better "death" in the beginning of the film than the end. The beginning gave him a death on a starship, saving the crew of an Enterprise as well as his friends, and he fulfilled his prophecy from TFF that he would die alone.

Instead, he dies from a bridge collapse with a guy he's just met on a planet no one knows about.

 

[Dream]

Instead, he dies from a bridge collapse with a guy he's just met on a planet no one knows about.

Just pretend the real Kirk died saving the Enterprise B, and the one that got out with Picard was a echo/duplicate version of the real Kirk. Remember Guinan's echo in the Nexus? That is how I choose to interpret it to wave away the stupid death scene.

 

[sonak]

Instead, he dies from a bridge collapse with a guy he's just met on a planet no one knows about.

Just pretend the real Kirk died saving the Enterprise B, and the one that got out with Picard was a echo/duplicate version of the real Kirk. Remember Guinan's echo in the Nexus? That is how I choose to interpret it to wave away the stupid death scene.

I like that idea! I think I'll use it.

 

[Lance]

Instead, he dies from a bridge collapse with a guy he's just met on a planet no one knows about.

Just pretend the real Kirk died saving the Enterprise B, and the one that got out with Picard was a echo/duplicate version of the real Kirk. Remember Guinan's echo in the Nexus? That is how I choose to interpret it to wave away the stupid death scene.

I like that idea! I think I'll use it.

Seconded. That's quite a neat explanation, and is fully consistent with what we're presented with on screen (the Guinan-echo introduces Picard to Kirk, but she never specifies that Kirk is any more 'alive' within the Nexus than she is).

The nexus is a very weak story device, isn't it? :facepalm:

 

[F. King Daniel]

The problem with that being that Echo Guinan couldn't leave the Nexus, and said as much. So Echo Kirk couldn't have done so, either (should he even exist, I assumed Guinan still partly existed there only because she was forcably beamed out)

Besides, Kirk may have died twice in Generations, but he got better. Read The Return.

 

[dub]

Then how well does this one work:

Kirk and Picard never left the nexus. Everything from the point Picard enters the nexus onward (including Kirk's "death," FC, Ins. and Nem.) are all part of Picard's nexus. Spock also sought out the nexus to rescue Kirk. He entered the nexus, and now JJ Trek is part of Spock's nexus.

*just to clarify: I keed, I keed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then how well does this one work:

Kirk and Picard never left the nexus. Everything from the point Picard enters the nexus onward (including Kirk's "death," FC, Ins. and Nem.) are all part of Picard's nexus. Spock also sought out the nexus to rescue Kirk. He entered the nexus, and now JJ Trek is part of Spock's nexus.

*just to clarify: I keed, I keed.

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

Actually, that has always been a problem with Generations. Did Picard actually leave the Nexus, or did he only imagine that he left the Nexus? The Nexus is a philosophical problem that the ancient Greeks would have jumped for joy to experience.

 

[BillJ]

The problem with that being that Echo Guinan couldn't leave the Nexus, and said as much. So Echo Kirk couldn't have done so, either (should he even exist, I assumed Guinan still partly existed there only because she was forcably beamed out)

Besides, Kirk may have died twice in Generations, but he got better. Read The Return.

But Echo Kirk is just that awesome.

 

[dub]

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

It would have been better (IMO) to address this obvious issue out in the open in the movie itself. Even just leaving it as an open question would have been good. Just acknowledge it. Picard could have had a conversation with Guinan on the ship that presumably takes them back to Earth at the end of the film:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Guinan smiles and walks away. Picard looks out of the window in deep thought. Cut to exterior shot of Picard in window. A reflection of the Veridian sun is on glass. Zoom out as ships go to warp. Fade out. End credits.

 

[dub]

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

It would have been better (IMO) to address this obvious issue out in the open in the movie itself. Even just leaving it as an open question would have been good. Just acknowledge it. Picard could have had a conversation with Guinan on the ship that presumably takes them back to Earth at the end of the film:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Guinan smiles and walks away. Picard looks out of the window in deep thought. Cut to exterior shot of Picard in window. A reflection of the Veridian sun is on glass. Zoom out as ships go to warp. Fade out. End credits.

Version 2:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Kirk walks up behind them.

Kirk: "If we are, then life is a dream."

Kirk smiles. Guinan looks at Kirk and smiles. Picard looks confused and horrified. Cut to black. End credits.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

Actually, that has always been a problem with Generations. Did Picard actually leave the Nexus, or did he only imagine that he left the Nexus? The Nexus is a philosophical problem that the ancient Greeks would have jumped for joy to experience.

Well, that degree of highbrow ambiguity just isn't a trope that Star Trek ever applied previously, so I don't believe that there's any reason to assume they started doing that in GEN. It was the real Picard and the real Kirk coming back to the real Prime Universe. That's how Star Trek rolls.

It's more that as soon as you move away from that and start swimming out in the deep end of the pool, you find that there's nothing to limit how deep you go.

ETA: I like dub's version 1. But that's not really highbrow ambiguity either, because it's telling you, "Hey look, I'm being ambiguous!" So that would work in Star Trek!

 

[dub]

I like dub's version 1. But that's not really highbrow ambiguity either, because it's telling you, "Hey look, I'm being ambiguous!" So that would work in Star Trek!

Eeeexactly!

 

[sonak]

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

It would have been better (IMO) to address this obvious issue out in the open in the movie itself. Even just leaving it as an open question would have been good. Just acknowledge it. Picard could have had a conversation with Guinan on the ship that presumably takes them back to Earth at the end of the film:

Picard: "So is all of this really happening, or--"
Guinan: "--or are you still in the Nexus? Good question, Captain."

Guinan smiles and walks away. Picard looks out of the window in deep thought. Cut to exterior shot of Picard in window. A reflection of the Veridian sun is on glass. Zoom out as ships go to warp. Fade out. End credits.

and the top keeps spinning on the table in his ready room, too...

 

[marksound]

The problem with that being that Echo Guinan couldn't leave the Nexus, and said as much. So Echo Kirk couldn't have done so, either (should he even exist, I assumed Guinan still partly existed there only because she was forcably beamed out)

Besides, Kirk may have died twice in Generations, but he got better. Read The Return.

Then he was only mostly dead?

 

[marksound]

Kirk and Picard never left the nexus. Everything from the point Picard enters the nexus onward (including Kirk's "death," FC, Ins. and Nem.) are all part of Picard's nexus.

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

That's the problem with assuming that Kirk never left the Nexus: it raises the question of how we know that Picard did.

Actually, that has always been a problem with Generations. Did Picard actually leave the Nexus, or did he only imagine that he left the Nexus?

That would explain a lot.

 

[RAMA]

I was looking at The Numbers.com, and apparently some of the BO numbers have been revised, if you go by that, the top 3 pre-2009 ST movies are:

STFC: $150 million
STTMP $139 million
$STIV: $133 million

A STNG movie tops the BO. They also make more than the TOS movies overseas.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I was looking at The Numbers.com, and apparently some of the BO numbers have been revised, if you go by that, the top 3 pre-2009 ST movies are:

STFC: $150 million
STTMP $139 million
$STIV: $133 million

A STNG movie tops the BO. They also make more than the TOS movies overseas.

RAMA

If you're looking at http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/StarTrek.php#, those figures don't appear to be adjusted for inflation.

Comparisons of movies at different times is meaningless, if the figures aren't adjusted.

 

[SoM]

From the viewpoint of a fan of TNG, we've also got the factor of the TNG series ending on the perfect note, and the four films effectively undoing the good will that All Good Things... was built on. If TNG had ended with that episode and then disappeared into reruns, I think it'd be more fondly remembered than it is by the general public.

Thing is, that's not an especially plausible scenario - IIRC, the cast were all contracted to do a S8, but they decided to latch onto the 'buzz' you mentioned and start on movies sooner. AGT was written after they knew TNG was ending as a TV show.

Probably what would have happened at the end of S8, if they decided against movies forevermore, is that rather than ending the show they would have started doing what series like ER did and began rotating the cast out. So Stewart and Spiner would probably have quit, and they may have seen another couple either go or get cut to bring in fresh blood.

Whether Voyager would ever have happened or they'd have just moved TNG to UPN is an open question, but DS9 may have suffered from writers (and later Dorn) sticking with TNG, and no Maquis if there was no Voyager.