That wasn't a mistake that would get a whole lot of someones killed.
Was Kirk right to report Finney's mistake? ("Court Martial")
- Thread starter dswynne1
- Start date
That wasn't a mistake that would get a whole lot of someones killed.
Yeah, that was a key difference for me. This wasn't just some paperworking snafu, or some glitch. It was made clear in the episode people would have died if Kirk didn't fix Finney's error. He had to report it. Starfleet is still a military organization. If Kirk had covered for his buddy and got caught, he probably would have been court-martialed, and deservedly so.
Kirk's loyal. He'll put his life on the line for you. But despite his sometimes unorthodox techniques, he's respects the rules and the chain of command.
Yes, the type of fear where someone you care about is going to have their life ruined. That is also called love.
My take on it is that Kirk was right to report it, because quite simply he was a cadet/midshipman and therefore as neither the authority or experience to make a judgement call about the situation, but does have the responsibility to report an dangerous occurances that he is aware of.
Honestly, given what we know of the situation, I think Finney's lack of success was less "making the mistake" or "Kirk reporting him", but him likely "missing the point" during a follow-up interview where he suggested that "it didn't matter because (someone else caught the problem and) no harm was done". Which though true, is a PoV that's often unpopular, particularly in a future leader.
Honestly, given what we know of the situation, I think Finney's lack of success was less "making the mistake" or "Kirk reporting him", but him likely "missing the point" during a follow-up interview where he suggested that "it didn't matter because (someone else caught the problem and) no harm was done". Which though true, is a PoV that's often unpopular, particularly in a future leader.
Depends on scale and scope of the incident, surely?
If nothing else, at least he's not Arnold J Rimmer...
You know, you almost made me want to see a Red Dwarf version of 'Trek, with Kirk as the lead. ALMOST. ;-)
And that's the thing. We only know that Finney was a "late bloomer" when it came to promotions, even before being reported on his mistake. Also, we don't know the circumstances that led to Finney's mistake. Was he tired? Did he forget simple procedures? Was he so anxious to speak to his wife and daughter that he took short-cuts, just before being relieved? Did his wife die just before the incident, which led him to be distracted? All we know is that he was reprimanded, and was "sent to the bottom of the promotions list". In fact, it may be that there are two bars to meet: one to become an officer, and another to become a starship captain (if you consider the fact that you can be promoted above the rank of "captain", and not be a commander of a starship, as seen in the TOS episode, "The Deadly Years").
And for the record, I am not implying that Kirk is a hypocrite, considering his later actions in life, but that young Kirk and older Kirk seem to be two different people.
You can’t have a working ship where no one reports others’ failures. Perhaps Ben Finney was just not cut out to hold that position. He was obviously failing at it. Not everyone masters every task they undertake.
I don't disagree with you. But, I just found it strange that you mentioned fear as a possible motivation. While it is certainly possible and perhaps true in some cases, I feel that when people bend the rules, in a case like this, it is out of a true concern for someone they care about. But, even that motivation can be called a fear because in some sense love is intertwined withe fear of something bad happen to the loved one. Often, our responses to caring (and love) is to behave in a misguided way, with good intentions.
Maybe I should have said intimidation instead of fear. Why would someone join an organization just to break their rules? This makes the organization a totally different thing in regards to the oaths members take in order to be on the ship in the first place. It is not your buddy’s Starfleet. You must be able to recognize who pays your salary. Do you work for Starfleet or your buddy? If you can’t figure that out, you don’t get a job.
If filling out the log accurately isn't worth doing just because it's the right thing to do (which should be enough), Kirk needs to think of himself, too.
If he covers for Finney, one of the first conversations on the messdeck after that watch would probably be something like: "You gotta hear this: Mister Finney didn't see the [technical blah blah] circuit was open and the reactor could have blown up! And Mister Kirk left it out of the log!" That day or the next Kirk is called to report to the captain and when the door opens he sees the captain, XO and chief engineer looking at him very seriously...
If he covers for Finney, one of the first conversations on the messdeck after that watch would probably be something like: "You gotta hear this: Mister Finney didn't see the [technical blah blah] circuit was open and the reactor could have blown up! And Mister Kirk left it out of the log!" That day or the next Kirk is called to report to the captain and when the door opens he sees the captain, XO and chief engineer looking at him very seriously...
I must confess I'm confused on exactly where the intimidation comes in, but even without knowing the details, I'll have to say I agree that if intimidation is involved anywhere in the process, it's all wrong and indefensible.
This is a very straightforward answer in my opinion- of course Kirk needs to report. There are hundreds of lives at stake, and Kirk's own career could have been jeopardized if he was found to have covered up.
He had an obligation of duty, and he was morally and ethically obligated to do so as well.
It was Finney's fuck up, not Kirk's. Finney needs to own that. Kirk did his duty.
He had an obligation of duty, and he was morally and ethically obligated to do so as well.
It was Finney's fuck up, not Kirk's. Finney needs to own that. Kirk did his duty.
With or without the reported incident, I don't think Finney was command material in the first place. Other tests of leadership and personality profiles would have, or maybe they did already, vet this out. Making a mistake is expected sometime in your career, it's how you deal with it. Finney never dealt with his own mistake, rather, he only blamed the messenger.
His actions later in life (i.e. in this episode) certainly prove he had issues from the beginning.
Since Finney turned out to be so murderously vindictive over it, Finney's own behavior proved Kirk was right about reporting him. And even more right for Kirk to beat the living shit out of this attempted murderer during the climax scene. Finney was a scamming liar who deserved whatever misery he got.
One man failed to do his job.
Another man did his job, and the first man was disciplined appropriately.
The first man held a grudge for decades and planned his revenge. And ultimately failed.
The other man became Captain James Tiberius Freaking Kirk.
Any questions?
Another man did his job, and the first man was disciplined appropriately.
The first man held a grudge for decades and planned his revenge. And ultimately failed.
The other man became Captain James Tiberius Freaking Kirk.
Any questions?
From the sound of it, there was more to Finney's lack of promotion, before and after his mistake, than just that one incident. Just because Finnney would come to blame Kirk for "ruining" his career by reporting that mistake doesn't mean that Kirk actually did so, or that Kirk had any reason to believe that he would be ruining Finney's career by reporting the mistake. If Finney was truly an exceptional officer, and this mistake was just an uncharacteristic aberration, then he might well have advanced despite it.
So, when young Kirk reported it, he probably wasn't thinking in terms of "Do I ruin my friend's career or not?"
Finney just couldn't accept that his own limitations affected his career.
So, when young Kirk reported it, he probably wasn't thinking in terms of "Do I ruin my friend's career or not?"
Finney just couldn't accept that his own limitations affected his career.
We might need to know what it takes to become a starship captain in order to find out what not making it really entails. Do you need to be utterly ruthless? Do you have to be independent/rebellious enough to commit treason when needed? Are you required to have a softer side? Those who did make it demonstrate all these qualities at times. Just two dropouts are described: Finney for making too slow progress and at least one mistake in following procedure during postgraduate career, and Merrick for not making the right sort of split-second decision in a test at the Academy.
So we still don't know whether starship captaincy is in the genes somehow, a personality issue; or something you can train for, a matter of perseverance. If the former, it might be a good idea to expose the wrong stuff of those who will never fit and will never get better, for the good of the organization. If the latter, it might be a good idea to expose the brief lapses of those who may offer you competition, for your own good.
Timo Saloniemi
So we still don't know whether starship captaincy is in the genes somehow, a personality issue; or something you can train for, a matter of perseverance. If the former, it might be a good idea to expose the wrong stuff of those who will never fit and will never get better, for the good of the organization. If the latter, it might be a good idea to expose the brief lapses of those who may offer you competition, for your own good.
Timo Saloniemi
