I have to agree with that.
Although very well-written and with an acceptable solution for the "Kes problem" they were utterly heavy-read.
Was Kes a Good Character?
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Although very well-written and with an acceptable solution for the "Kes problem" they were utterly heavy-read.
Kes is an excellent character written by people who had some good ideas but messed what could have been the best SF-show ever. She was played by a brilliant actress who unfortunately have had some problems later on in her life.
And I did get that exactly right.
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I appreciated how "they" had Kes follow Captain Janeway around, like a lost puppy and that Kathryn did more than tolerate it ... she actually took Kes under her wing, as it were, and quickly learned to love Kes as if she were her own. That's always touched my heart. I mean, watch Sacred Ground, for instance.
Yes, Janeway would've done the same for Neelix, had it been him, instead ... but it wasn't. It was her play-daughter, if you like. But as it wasn't a Kes-centric episode, her importance to Kathryn was downplayed, somewhat ... in favour of allowing the good captain to make an important self-realisation.
But I'm not trying to review an episode, here, I'm just trying to say that Kes mattered more to the show's "universe" than is generally acknowledged. She could've just been reduced to "Neelix's girlfriend" who nobody knows or cares about, but they didn't do that. The entire bridge crew ... even B'Elanna and The Doctor ... owes a debt of some sort to Kes. Her unconditional love, her unwavering support and her accessibility to anyone who wanted to befriend her were essential, at times, to the growth of their character.
And, as for her character, Life Imitates Art, in the sense that the Good Girl is the one who gets shit on and her character's made a glorified extra, at times. Or she's given some idiotic traits like a hamster's lifespan, or magical powers that are unexpectedly brought up, only to be dismissed. Or that unforgivable Andy Warhol wig! But for all of that, Jennifer Lien - at least, back then - was very loved by the cast and she was very beautiful - with a disarming charm all her own, certainly.
Yes, Janeway would've done the same for Neelix, had it been him, instead ... but it wasn't. It was her play-daughter, if you like. But as it wasn't a Kes-centric episode, her importance to Kathryn was downplayed, somewhat ... in favour of allowing the good captain to make an important self-realisation.
But I'm not trying to review an episode, here, I'm just trying to say that Kes mattered more to the show's "universe" than is generally acknowledged. She could've just been reduced to "Neelix's girlfriend" who nobody knows or cares about, but they didn't do that. The entire bridge crew ... even B'Elanna and The Doctor ... owes a debt of some sort to Kes. Her unconditional love, her unwavering support and her accessibility to anyone who wanted to befriend her were essential, at times, to the growth of their character.
And, as for her character, Life Imitates Art, in the sense that the Good Girl is the one who gets shit on and her character's made a glorified extra, at times. Or she's given some idiotic traits like a hamster's lifespan, or magical powers that are unexpectedly brought up, only to be dismissed. Or that unforgivable Andy Warhol wig! But for all of that, Jennifer Lien - at least, back then - was very loved by the cast and she was very beautiful - with a disarming charm all her own, certainly.
She was a pretty good character (mind you I enjoy Seven just as much so in this sense there's no difference for me between the the women). And there were episodes in which her telepathic/telekinetic abilities were used without going to extremes - like this wallpaper of mine demonstrates:
I don't have a problem with Seven of Nine, either. She struggled to regain her Humanity, not really knowing what she was doing and the results were very charming, for the most part. It made her very cute, in her own way, the duality she had of being incredibly book smart and not at all people smart. I just feel that her hotness is overrated and that she took over the show, like (General) Grant took over Richmond (Virginia). Kes got axed and Janeway became a 2nd stringer on her own show ...
Kes, of course, had such an innate understanding of The Human Condition, but having been raised 'sheltered,' if you like, she was always so fascinated by everything. Like how you can always tell someone's a tourist, by how they gawk at everything, with eyes wide and jaw agape. And here, again, her naïve nature did much to underline how vulnerable she was. As did her pixie-ness and sweet disposition. And your wallpapers have captured that about her, quite nicely, sir.
Kes, of course, had such an innate understanding of The Human Condition, but having been raised 'sheltered,' if you like, she was always so fascinated by everything. Like how you can always tell someone's a tourist, by how they gawk at everything, with eyes wide and jaw agape. And here, again, her naïve nature did much to underline how vulnerable she was. As did her pixie-ness and sweet disposition. And your wallpapers have captured that about her, quite nicely, sir.
Kes was an embarrassing character. Some assholes wet dream where the infatuation with young innocence gets swept under the all covering, all accepting term of "alien". Nine years old? NO PROBLEM! ALIEN!
So I'm an asshole because I happen to like the character?
I find your comment rude, offensive and personally insulting.
Thanks, 2takesfrakes. And to return the compliment, I've recently read that poem of yours about Kes, which was really nice.
If you happen to write a love poem about Tom, I beg you to let me know, LOL!
I prefer Seven of Nine, but I don't have anything against Kes. It's just too bad they couldn't have kept both of them, as I think Kes would have been great help to Seven as she adapted to life aboard Voyager in those early months.
Only if you created the character of Kes, because it looks like that's the only person she's insulting to me
.
Only if you created the character of Kes, because it looks like that's the only person she's insulting to me
It did actually look as if it was directed to the fans of the character.
Not to mention that the whole comment was rude. I mean, I've been writing a lot of nasty posts about the writers who first removed the character, then brought it back just to destroy it but not at the same level as in this comment.
If I have to comment it as if it was directed against the writers and producers, then I must state that the whole argument is built on a serious obsessions with years and numbers. Compared to a human, Kes was in her twenties when she came on board Voyager, old enough to be in a relationship and even have a child if she wanted to. As for the "young innocence" mentioned, that fits Naomi Wildman in season 5 more than Kes.
What about Tuvok then? Compared with a human, he was far beyond retirement. But I don't see anyone bothered about his age.
As for the nine-year lifespan itself, I have always found that concept uttely silly. It was meaningless and didn't lead anywhere.
I thought it was brilliant and different; hearing a species with such a short lifespan reminded me of an animal, and I myself loved my dog and felt it was as much as a part of me and my family. To have character like Kes, and her lifespan was something the writers could explore about the meaning of life and how precious life is and can be. There are terminally ill people who could find solace from the concept. It's blind thinking to find it utterly silly.
One would have to look at the concept with many point of views to make it transcend.
The producers lost interest in the character and concept because it was harder to fit her in TNG box, where the series ended up being very rapidly. If I had the assignment to write Kes I would've had plenty of stories to tell and they would've been meaningful.
One would have to look at the concept with many point of views to make it transcend.
The producers lost interest in the character and concept because it was harder to fit her in TNG box, where the series ended up being very rapidly. If I had the assignment to write Kes I would've had plenty of stories to tell and they would've been meaningful.
I have to disagree here.
The problem is that someone with such a short lifespan would never develope into anything more than a primate.
We can get the message of how the meaning of life and precious life can be in many other ways which has often been showed in Star Trek.
As for me personally, if I were terminally ill, I don't think I would appreciate such a scenario in a series. I would prefer something which would steer my mind away from such scenarios, not make me more aware of it. And believe me, despite being a healthy person myself, I have had more than enough of deaths, diseases and tragedies around me, among family, relatives and friends to have to be reminded of it every now and then.
As for writing, I must admit that it took me five minutes to sort out the damage made to the character in "The Gift" plus sorting out the lifespan itself and it took me only a minute to sort out the damage made to the character in that horrible, insulting season 6 episode.
The problem is that someone with such a short lifespan would never develope into anything more than a primate.
We can get the message of how the meaning of life and precious life can be in many other ways which has often been showed in Star Trek.
As for me personally, if I were terminally ill, I don't think I would appreciate such a scenario in a series. I would prefer something which would steer my mind away from such scenarios, not make me more aware of it. And believe me, despite being a healthy person myself, I have had more than enough of deaths, diseases and tragedies around me, among family, relatives and friends to have to be reminded of it every now and then.
As for writing, I must admit that it took me five minutes to sort out the damage made to the character in "The Gift" plus sorting out the lifespan itself and it took me only a minute to sort out the damage made to the character in that horrible, insulting season 6 episode.
As I said earlier in this thread; the life-span thing only make sense if Ocampans mature very quickly. They ought to be confident, independent, cynical, sexual beings within the first three months. That Kes was so innocent for so long, made the entire Ocampan species come across exactly as the thing the Caretaker claimed they were -- innocent, incapable children.
I don't see how a species like that could last in the real world (even with a caretaker).
There was a real opportunity to show (through Kes) a species develop in a way that we'd never seen before. Something genuinely unique and alien but in the end, all we got was... woman-child.
What I don't understand is why she couldn't be a recurring character at least (without the FURY nonsense).
Towards the end of Season 3 they started developing her character nicely and then she was suddenly kicked out of the show.
This is especially incomprehensible to me because BEFORE AND AFTER was the prelude to YEAR OF HELL so it should have been natural that she would be in that one at least. (I found that scene with the chroniton torpedo weird with Seven in it.)
She could have come back for a few episodes each season. In this way perhaps ENDGAME would have been different, too.
Also, since she wasn't killed off but was given a pretty impressive farewell, it shouldn't have been too difficult to find ways of bringing her back every now and then.
And there's something else I've been thinking about for a long time. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really know (and like) the other Trek shows but didn't actors of Star Trek always leave either because they wanted to or because they had differences with the producers? Or had there been cases before when an actor was told, "Oh, sorry, your character has reached its maximum potential so you're out"?
Towards the end of Season 3 they started developing her character nicely and then she was suddenly kicked out of the show.
This is especially incomprehensible to me because BEFORE AND AFTER was the prelude to YEAR OF HELL so it should have been natural that she would be in that one at least. (I found that scene with the chroniton torpedo weird with Seven in it.)
She could have come back for a few episodes each season. In this way perhaps ENDGAME would have been different, too.
Also, since she wasn't killed off but was given a pretty impressive farewell, it shouldn't have been too difficult to find ways of bringing her back every now and then.
And there's something else I've been thinking about for a long time. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really know (and like) the other Trek shows but didn't actors of Star Trek always leave either because they wanted to or because they had differences with the producers? Or had there been cases before when an actor was told, "Oh, sorry, your character has reached its maximum potential so you're out"?
I dislike the whole super innocent but super fuckable trope character in any setting. If Lien had Warlorded it up a bit the ickiness might have faded but she played Kes with that wide eyed sweetness that the whole crew pandered to as some kind of wisdom and I think that's because that is exactly what the writers wanted. The only time she ever had a sharp word for anyone was because something hideous was taking over her body or whatever.. it went beyond the TNG evolved human ideal. I spent the whole first viewing of VOY wanting to slap or shake her.
Tom hooking up with her in the alternate timeline is particularly disturbing when you realize B'Elanna is his lover in ours. You couldn't get more different people, the B'Elanna love affair is believable and fun to watch so what the heck was going on when he was paired up with little miss butter in her mouth?
Tom hooking up with her in the alternate timeline is particularly disturbing when you realize B'Elanna is his lover in ours. You couldn't get more different people, the B'Elanna love affair is believable and fun to watch so what the heck was going on when he was paired up with little miss butter in her mouth?
You can have most of the advantages of a "short lifespan" by giving that particular character in question a terminal illness arc. And be sure to actually kill the blasted character if you want the full fruits of that drama.
I do think Jen did an honourable job in the circumstances mind you. But I'm not a fan of pixie characters either - or court fool characters for that matter.
I do think Jen did an honourable job in the circumstances mind you. But I'm not a fan of pixie characters either - or court fool characters for that matter.
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