Was John Gill insane?

[Timo]

...As opposed to him seeing them use a death ray?

Based not only on the many TOS episodes on the subject, but also on backstories from TOS episodes, it is routine for Starfleet to send landing parties to primitive societies, even when according to "Bread and Circuses" the Prime Directive ought to be in force on such worlds and things like "identification of self and mission" should be abstained from at any cost. One would think, then, that things like these invisible transponders would be a standard approach, and that routine procedures would exist for extracting the landing party from the middle of primitives. Indeed, it's way cool that the transponders are used here, and without needless shock and awe - but all the more annoying when they aren't used in their intended purpose when the push comes to a whipping.

On the other hand, teleportation in full view of primitives wasn't an offense back when the Horizon folks did it, and didn't appear to be an issue in most of Kirk's missions, either. Why should it be less allowed in dire emergencies?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

One for me was the cool escape using the transponder and the piece of metal from the bed creating a laser to cut the lock.

That's in the worst McGyver tradition, though: why jury-rig something like that when they should have been able to simply beam up with the help of those transponders? What good did they do if they weren't capable of that?

Timo Saloniemi

Quit trying to suck the fun out of it!

 

[Timo]

But I love McGyver!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the more absurd twists of TOS almost as much as I enjoy the straight conservative military drama aspect of it. There's just a fine line between the TOS style of camp and the Batman style, and every time you insert McGyver into it, you move a notch towards Batman... Deadpan responses to the absurdities of the week are fine, but I get an even bigger kick out of it if the responses also make common sense. That's the ultimate deadpan!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Albertese]

...

On the other hand, teleportation in full view of primitives wasn't an offense back when the Horizon folks did it, and didn't appear to be an issue in most of Kirk's missions, either. Why should it be less allowed in dire emergencies?

Timo Saloniemi

It's early in the morning as I type this, but I think you're wrong on this one.

In "A Piece of the Action" the natives weren't familiar with the transporter. Recall that Kirk claimed he'd beam down and then started backpedaling with "oh, that'll be hard to explain" stuff, as if the previous ship that visited them didn't have transporters so it'd be new for these guys. Also, they were there to even with these guys about who and what the Horizon crew was and why they were there, to assess and hopefully limit the cultural contamination. So that was a weird circumstance.

Also in "Errand of Mercy" they beamed down into town. But that was also becasue they were trying to tell the natives the truth of what was going on. They do comment on the fact that everyone seems nonplused about the fact of their method of arrival... "You'd think they saw people beaming in every day." But they weren't there to sneak around and study people.

In "Friday's Child" the Capellans, for whatever reason, seem totally aware of advanced life from other planets and are cool with it. So no need to sneak around there.

But any time they are sneaking around in native costume, they usually are beaming into and out of private areas where they won't be seen. The only examples that come to me off the top of my head at this early hour is "A Private Little War" and "Bread and Circuses." And, of course, "Patterns of Force."

--Alex

 

[Maurice]

Also in "Errand of Mercy" they beamed down into town. But that was also becasue they were trying to tell the natives the truth of what was going on. They do comment on the fact that everyone seems nonplused about the fact of their method of arrival... "You'd think they saw people beaming in every day." But they weren't there to sneak around and study people.

Actually, it's Kirk and Spock who were nonplussed, not the Organians (nonplussed meaning surprise and confuse (someone) so much that they are unsure how to react: Kirk was nonplussed by the Organians' lack of reaction).

 

[Dantheman]

I just have to ask about this episode: Did they raid the set of Hogan's Heroes for the Nazi uniforms, or did they get them from elsewhere?

It's something I've always wondered.

 

[CoveTom]

Given the number of World War II productions that have been made, I would suspect that pretty much every major studio had a surplus of Nazi uniforms available. And, BTW, I do agree with Kirk... for all their faults, the Gestapo did have snappy uniforms.

 

[Knight Templar]

It made no sense whatsoever to "sneak around" as locals on Organia when your whole purpose was to warn the Organians that a Klingon fleet would be arriving shortly and no doubt beaming down an occupation army (which they did).

 

[RPJOB]

I wonder just what they expected the Organians to do.

SPOCK: Captain, we've reached the designated position for scanning the coded directive tape.
KIRK: Good. (puts it into a decoder) We both guessed right. Negotiations with the Klingon Empire are on the verge of breaking down. Starfleet Command anticipates a surprise attack. We are to proceed to Organia and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent the Klingons from using it as a base.
SPOCK: Strategically sound. Organia is the only Class M planet in the disputed area, ideally located for use by either side.
KIRK: Organia's description, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Inhabited by humanoids. A very peaceful, friendly people living on a primitive level. Little of intrinsic value. Approximately Class D minus on Richter's scale of cultures.

Was Organia so densely populated that there wasn't an unoccupied spot where the Klingons could construct their base? Urging primitive people to resist a much more advanced and hostile race is only going to get the inhabitants killed. Since Kirk & Spock were trapped on the planet when the Klingon fleet arrived they should simply have laid low and waited for the Enterprise to return with reinforcements. The proclamation issued by Kor was fairly straightforward and, as long as they didn't resist, relatively benign.

KOR: From this day on, no public assemblages of more than three people. All publications to be cleared through this office. Neighbourhood controls will be established, hostages selected. A somewhat lengthy list of crimes against the state.

The Organians were willing to go along with it. Kirk is the one that brought about the wrath of the Klingons. Having the Organians "killed" did nothing to prevent the Klingons from establishing a base.

 

[scotpens]

You know, even in the worst episodes there are redeeming features. One for me was the cool escape using the transponder and the piece of metal from the bed creating a laser to cut the lock.

That's in the worst McGyver tradition, though: why jury-rig something like that when they should have been able to simply beam up with the help of those transponders? What good did they do if they weren't capable of that?

A transponder is a device that emits an identifying signal in response to an interrogating received signal. It can’t be used for communication by voice or code. Kirk and Spock’s movements could be tracked by the Enterprise, but without communicators, there’s no way they could have requested an emergency beam-up.

Of course, the story reason for the subcutaneous transponder was a set-up for a later payoff — like Q equipping James Bond with exactly the gadget he’ll need to pull his ass out of the fire.

Also in "Errand of Mercy" they beamed down into town. But that was also because they were trying to tell the natives the truth of what was going on. They do comment on the fact that everyone seems nonplussed about the fact of their method of arrival... "You'd think they saw people beaming in every day."

Actually, it's Kirk and Spock who were nonplussed, not the Organians (nonplussed meaning surprise and confuse (someone) so much that they are unsure how to react: Kirk was nonplussed by the Organians' lack of reaction).

That’s correct. Kirk and Spock were nonplussed; the Organians were plussed!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

...As opposed to him seeing them use a death ray?

Kirk must have reasoned that using what amounted to a fancy death ray would be less risky than a full-out transporter beam-out. The former would be more easily shrugged off; the latter would not. Especially since Ekos already had nuclear technology (thanks to Gill).

Besides, they didn't have their communicators, did they? So there would have been no way for Kirk to signal for a beam-out anyway.

 

[Timo]

Urging primitive people to resist a much more advanced and hostile race is only going to get the inhabitants killed.

...But that would still serve UFP interests fine. Better Organians dying than Feds.

What possible "strategic" value could a Class M planet offer to the Klingons? It might be that the only such value to be had would be as a hostage against UFP counterstrikes, as the Klingons would understand the unique weakness of their opponent there. Or then smart humanoid slaves would be what makes a planet "strategic", as labor for the assorted needs of starships passing by - even if long term goals such as mining would be too long a way off to be of significance in the war.

In either case, inciting the Organians to revolt and to be killed en masse would be in UFP interests.

A transponder is a device that emits an identifying signal in response to an interrogating received signal. It can’t be used for communication by voice or code.

It should have been trivial to install a signaling functionality there, though - say, "press the area of skin and the signal hiccups, at which point you will be extracted". Not having that functionality is just as stupid as wasting the transponders in that complicated and unnecessary escape attempt...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

I've always had a question in regard to "Errand Of Mercy."

Kirk wants the Organians to let the Federation set up defences to help protect them. The planet is obviously just as strategically important to the Federation. BUT, they badly misjudged how much time they had before the Klingons showed up. Even if the Organians had said, "hell yeah, bring it on and protect us from the baddies." the Federation simply wouldn't have had enough time to do anything of significance.

It only works if the Feds already knew this and were prepared to fight the Klingons off the planet first and set up shop afterward.

 

[Timo]

"Preventing Klingons from using [Organia] as a base" could be achieved by a variety of means. Fortifying the property so that the Klingons can't get there would be one thing - but only worth the while if the planet were of some value to the Federation, which we never really learn would be the case. Melting the surface to glass would be another, and possibly a step Kirk would have taken if everything else failed. But allowing the Klingons to land, and then rousing the locals into harassing the Klingons as irritatingly as they possibly can, would also be a valid means of reducing the value of the place as a base.

It all depends on what the Klingons were hoping to get out of it. Starships or starship fleets don't seem to have much use for planets, that we'd know of, and primitive planets the least of all. But it might be practical to replenish food, water and air from a Class M planet, thus freeing all the tender vessels and theater transports to ferrying fuel or spare parts. And perhaps the crews would need rest and recuperation as well, although I can't really see this being much of a factor. Those things Organia would provide - and those things the Klingons would be deprived of if the Organians poisoned their meals, burned their supplies, pissed in their water containers, and every now and then stabbed a drunken Klingon or three to death with pitchforks.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hartzilla2007]

What possible "strategic" value could a Class M planet offer to the Klingons?

They said why in the episode. It's the only habitable planet in the disputed zone meaning it's the only place in the area the war will likely be fought that they can quickly set a base on since they don't have to worry about building a facility that's air tight. Seeing as the opening of a war isn't likely to be the best time to build one of those.

but only worth the while if the planet were of some value to the Federation, which we never really learn would be the case.

Its the same value to the Klingons i.e. location, location, location. Kirk even said it was on an invasion route so making sure the Klingons can't use it as a base to invade from while also using it for their own invasion would likely be a good idea.

Melting the surface to glass would be another, and possibly a step Kirk would have taken if everything else failed.

Just

When has Starfleet ever been that ruthless?

 

[Timo]

they don't have to worry about building a facility that's air tight

But why build a "facility" to begin with? What use would non-airtight planetbound facilities be in the upcoming war?

Its the same value to the Klingons i.e. location, location, location. Kirk even said it was on an invasion route so making sure the Klingons can't use it as a base to invade from while also using it for their own invasion would likely be a good idea.

Why should fleets of starships be interested whether there's a pebble on their route or not? No matter what was on that planet, it couldn't stop an invasion fleet from proceeding through that solar system, or slightly past said system if need be. Unless it was a base from which starships deployed, that is. But what sort of base facilities could the starships possibly need that could be provided by Organia? The Klingons would have to bring all their facilities with them, and would probably be better off setting them up somewhere far away from planets and other such points of interest or vulnerability.

When has Starfleet ever been that ruthless?

When fighting wars.

That is, the one time we did see it fighting a war, genocide was the preferred (and ultimately successful) means. It might be the least cruel method, too, in terms of total body counts.

Of course, Kirk and Spock in this episode wage war with stun phasers. But they are ready to devastate a world just to save Kirk's life in "A Taste of Armageddon". And their opponents think nothing of blowing up planets or stars in various other episodes. If Organia really were of strategic value somehow, the Feds would wish to slag it - and the native population on it would be an unwelcome hindrance, but one that might not ultimately stand in the way of saving the lives of trillions of UFP citizens.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hartzilla2007]

they don't have to worry about building a facility that's air tight

But why build a "facility" to begin with? What use would non-airtight planetbound facilities be in the upcoming war?

Because Starfleet and the Klingons aren't magical beings who can fix, refuel, rearm, and re-crew starships without a base hence why Starfleet has these things called star bases to take care of that and seeing as Organia is a nice place for a beachhead so you don't have to worry about the enemy trashing the facilities in your own space as well as being able to maintain your ships and replace crews and weapons without having to go all the way back to your own territory when invading someone else's space.

Its the same value to the Klingons i.e. location, location, location. Kirk even said it was on an invasion route so making sure the Klingons can't use it as a base to invade from while also using it for their own invasion would likely be a good idea.

Why should fleets of starships be interested whether there's a pebble on their route or not? No matter what was on that planet, it couldn't stop an invasion fleet from proceeding through that solar system, or slightly past said system if need be.

Yeah but if they star to run out of gas and torpedoes and crew they couldn't go much further could they so having a nearby base to get replacements for all of that would be handy wouldn't it.

Unless it was a base from which starships deployed, that is. But what sort of base facilities could the starships possibly need that could be provided by Organia? The Klingons would have to bring all their facilities with them, and would probably be better off setting them up somewhere far away from planets and other such points of interest or vulnerability.

As it would also be far way from the front, repairs and re-crewing would now start causing more time as they have to travel far away from the front which gives more time for the enemy to kick your ass out of an area while you have to travel to and from.

When has Starfleet ever been that ruthless?

When fighting wars.

That is, the one time we did see it fighting a war, genocide was the preferred (and ultimately successful) means.

1) You remember that but forget where DS9 was located which pretty much kills your points from above.

2) Odo was the one who successfully brought the war to an end and the genocide was attempted by a rouge terrorist organization not starfleet and said terrorists were willing to let Odo die from the disease which probably would have led to a bloody end to the war as the head Founder ordered everyone to fight to the death before surrendering after being cured which the terrorists wouldn't have wanted. meaning it would be a long and bloody battle in the end.

 

[Timo]

Starfleet and the Klingons aren't magical beings who can fix, refuel, rearm, and re-crew starships without a base

But there's no base on Organia. If the Klingons wanted one there, they'd have to bring it with them. Which again gets us back to "why bring it to Organia?". What does the planet have to offer that would be beneficial for a base?

If starships need to replenish their fuel or ammo, it makes little sense to stockpile that down on a planet where starships can't get at it. Leave it in space where it will be at least equally safe and much more easily accessible and defensible!

If Organia could actually produce fuel or ammo, then it would be different. But it can't, not with medieval technology. It can produce food, taverns and prostitutes, but is that enough for choosing it for a base?

In the long term, Klingons could establish mines there, and build an industry. But Kor seems to be doing nothing of the sort. He's just digging in and subjugating the locals.

As it would also be far way from the front

No, it wouldn't - if the Klingons can bring the base to Organia, they can also bring it with them to wherever else they might go. Including open space, where they don't have to bother with building open-air shacks or anything.

forget where DS9 was located which pretty much kills your points from above

How so? DS9 was never really established as a net producer of services to the starships, other than said food, taverns and prostitutes. The shipyards were elsewhere, and for most of the time, so were the fleets. But there was an industrialized world nearby, which would help maintain the 9th Fleet. (A world ironically largely industrialized by the enemy, it would seem.) At Organia, getting enough steel to rebuild even a hand disruptor might be a Herculean effort...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

...the genocide was attempted by a rouge terrorist organization...

Moulin Rouge, perhaps? Or perhaps you meant rogue.

 

[scotpens]

A transponder is a device that emits an identifying signal in response to an interrogating received signal. It can’t be used for communication by voice or code.

It should have been trivial to install a signaling functionality there, though - say, "press the area of skin and the signal hiccups, at which point you will be extracted".

That might make it too likely for a signal to be sent accidentally. The ruler of planet Delta Kuppa Java greets Kirk with a firm handshake, presses on the transponder, and zap! — Kirk makes an unintended (and rude) exit!