Was John Gill insane?

[The Overlord]

Was John Gill insane? Of all the countries he could have created on Ekos, he decided Nazi Germany was the best one. There were a thousand better choices for a "benevolent dictatorship" to impose order on a chaotic society then Nazi Germany. Napoleon isn't considered one of the most evil persons in history, for example.

Also his claim that Nazi Germany was the most efficient society ever doesn't jive with a lot of modern historians.

"The episode's thesis that Germany, and especially Nazi Germany, was the "most efficient" state in history, was popular in 1960s America; it is, however, strongly denied by modern historians that point to the many bloated, competing bureaucracies with ill-defined areas of competence that existed in that period, mostly financed with stolen and expropriated funds."

 

[SchwEnt]

Well, as you suggest "Nazi efficiency" was a popular notion in 1960s America and is now denied by modern historians. That may well be so.

I would suggest that the same idea may be viewed differently yet again by 23rd century historians such as Gill. After The Eugenics Wars and WWIII and all that, maybe Nazi efficiency myths are revisionist again after two centuries rather than several decades. I don't know.

 

[Knight Templar]

From Gill's perspective, the horrors of Nazi Germany were probably way overshadowed by the various wars that occurred in the decades later. From the perspective of a massive war in the 21st century that killed 600 million people, the Nazis probably looked like no big deal.

 

[The Overlord]

From Gill's perspective, the horrors of Nazi Germany were probably way overshadowed by the various wars that occurred in the decades later. From the perspective of a massive war in the 21st century that killed 600 million people, the Nazis probably looked like no big deal.

I can think of many different authoritarian governments that were better suited for someone who wanted change a society and wasn't a psychopath. There is Napoleon, who while dictator and a conqueror, brought in laws that gave almost equal rights to Jews in French society or Josip Tito, the communist dictator who ran Yugoslavia and used government power to keep the peace between the various ethnic groups in that country.

If you are going to impose a dictatorship on a country, Nazism seems like one of the worst choices. Racism is inherent in that ideology, it makes for a naturally self destructive society, it needs a racial enemy to justify itself. You have an authoritarian society that is not as inherently evil as a Nazi regime.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

From Gill's perspective, the horrors of Nazi Germany were probably way overshadowed by the various wars that occurred in the decades later. From the perspective of a massive war in the 21st century that killed 600 million people, the Nazis probably looked like no big deal.

Stating this little tidbit explicitly in dialog would have improved the episode, by making the oversight more believable. It would have also made the episode more interesting, for the same reason.

 

[MikeH92467]

From Gill's perspective, the horrors of Nazi Germany were probably way overshadowed by the various wars that occurred in the decades later. From the perspective of a massive war in the 21st century that killed 600 million people, the Nazis probably looked like no big deal.

Stating this little tidbit explicitly in dialog would have improved the episode, by making the oversight more believable. It would have also made the episode more interesting, for the same reason.

Well, hubris is always a possibility: the idea that Gill could have convinced himself that he was smart enough to pick and choose the elements of Nazism that worked for his situation while avoiding the pitfalls.

 

[TOSalltheway]

The Nazis were the personification of evil. Case closed. There is no justification for emulating them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, hubris is always a possibility: the idea that Gill could have convinced himself that he was smart enough to pick and choose the elements of Nazism that worked for his situation while avoiding the pitfalls.

Yeah, hubris was the suggestion I got from the episode.

The Nazis were the personification of evil. Case closed. There is no justification for emulating them.

This is why it was hard to suspend disbelief.

There was no suggestion in the episode I am aware of that Gill was insane.

 

[Albertese]

The Nazis were the personification of evil. Case closed. There is no justification for emulating them.

Sorry, but you give the Nazis too much credit.

Granted, there's no shortage of evil in the Nazi's practices and policies. But the idea that Nazis are the World's Worst/Evilest Villains is largely a construct of American theater. I imagine a victim of the Lord's Resistance Army in today's Central Africa might be pretty dismissive of Hitler and his crew. And WWII's Japanese were no kinder to the Chinese and Koreans than the Germans were to the Jews. And perhaps you've heard of a little misadventure known as the Holy Crusades, to say nothing of ancient atrocities committed by peoples who lacked the industrial scale of the holocaust but lacked none of the, dare I say it, evil.

Our vitriol against the Nazi party is due to the fact that so many of our grandfathers were personally killed by them. My Grandpa was too young to enlist at the time, but he had a cousin who was on a bomber shot down behind German lines. Heck, our man James Doohan was himself shot up by Nazis (that's why the show is very careful to never give you a good view of his right hand with it's mostly missing middle finger -- Thanks Nazis!). So in the 1960's, they were fresh in mind.

In universe, I suspect that by the 2260's the Eugenic's War, WWIII, and numerous conflicts with aliens (if you count all the shows then this would include the Kzinti, the Xindii war, the Romulan War, and more than a little sabre-rattling with the Klingons). No doubt one of those enemies had replaced the Nazis as the personification of evil in the popular imagination of the Federation-at-large by John Gill's time. He might have seen the situation on the planet as similar to post-WWI Germany and thought that adopting certain elements of the national socialist structure could have been controlled and used to good effect on that world. No doubt, centuries of separation from the tragedy of World War II gave him a bit more of a dispassionate view of what went on there.

Of course, it was a reckless experiment to have even attempted. And certainly it must have been hubris that made him even think he could try it. But I think it failed and devolved into a national attempt at genocide, not because John Gill decided in introduce that ideology into the system, but because Melakon, who had his own ax to grind, saw the potential and took his opportunity.

I wonder if we'd be having this discussion if instead of Hitler, John Gill had decided to model himself on Hirohito.

--Alex

P.S. Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to defend Hitler or the Nazi party in any way, I'm just saying there's a little more to it than that....

I've always known the Nazis were bad guys but the book called I Cannot Forgive, written by Rudolf Vrba, one of the few to have escaped from Auschwitz, really put a new perspective on it for me. But even so, the Nazi's didn't have monopoly on evil.

--AM

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

Or Gill was a Neo-Neo Nazi. Even now there are still Nazi admirers even though everyone should know better. They know but don't care because they believe it was the right way. There are Neo Nazis in the US, Germany, and as everyone is being reminded, Norway. Those kind of people you can't convince otherwise, you just have to contain them from doing damage and terraform the landscape to be extremely inhospitable to that kind of ideology taking root. So, one can imagine in the future Nazism having its admirers, like a historian who wants to run an experiment of a Third Reich that never ended. TOS creates the impression of a Wild West in space. Some far-flung world few would notice is the ideal spot for an experiment or a re-creation.

The whole Gill being manipulated through drugs angle seemed a copout or perhaps the writers being naive and thinking their generation (the one that fought WWII) surely would reject any vestige of Nazism having fought it and seen its effects firsthand (not just limited to concentration camps, but occupations of other countries [particularly Poland. Many don't know the scale of death and destruction that happened there. It gets glossed over for the march from D-Day to Berlin and the Holocaust], the Blitz, and what it did to Germany itself), conflating their generational experience (and expectations) with the future (one can see that in Outer Limits where in many future-set episodes, astronauts refer to a Korean war even though their ages would make it look like the 1960s despite it trying to look far in the future. They forget in part of the script that its the future, not 1963/4, and forget of course there would be other wars after Korea). Maybe he's subconsciously a Neo-Nazi and doesn't realize it, like if given "The Enemy Within" treatment, we'd see good ol Gill like in the episode and then a total Nazi Gill.

 

[Timo]

Was John Gill insane?

We can't tell, because we never met the guy. Except when he was heavily sedated and rambling incoherently, that is.

The thing is, Kirk shouldn't have been able to tell, either, as he didn't meet Gill any more than we did. It is Kirk's personal view that Gill had attempted to create an orderly society with a bright future ahead of it, and had been beset by betrayal and miscalculations - a view he puts into words he force-feeds into the poor man's mouth at his dying moment.

A far more likely scenario here is that Gill was an expert in the effects of Nazi-type regimes and knew how to best exploit them for personal gain. He would have been fully aware that the choice of regime would doom the Ekosians to ruination - but by the time that happened, he himself would be off, scot free and with his pockets full of riches from the world he had so cunningly subjugated.

Is that insane? Only in the sense that all crime is considered insanity in the 2260s, and treated as such. Gill might have miscalculated in not keeping careful enough watch against the inevitable backstabbers, but Kirk stumbling onto him was probably just damn bad luck; had Melakon not deposed him, orderly reports to Starfleet about the "cultural observation mission" would no doubt have continued to be sent by him.

Choosing the Nazis for a mission of kleptocracy would in fact be a very smart move. The catching glory of the smart uniforms, the inspiring parades, the easy rhetoric and the make-work economy would be among the quickest and most secure ways to establish a short-term rule and to remove all traces of whatever rule had previously existed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

It's also quite possible Gill is simply suffering from some type of dementia or another neurological disorder. He could've easily slipped into some form of madness without the advanced medical technology of the Federation and not even have realized it himself.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

400 years ago, Henry VIII was King of England, started the reformation, tore down the monasteries, created a schism in Christianity that is still felt to this day, cost countless lives, and until very recently was still claiming lives because of Northern Ireland.

He's remembered for marrying six wives.

In four hundred years, Hitler's crowning achievement may be the Volkswagen Beetle and the Autobahn, and the death of millions may be a footnote. Besides, as mentioned, it's probable that the events of WWII were overshadowed by the Eugenics wars and WWIII, with Colonel Green and Khan bigger villains, with genetic engineering a more notorious and loathsome event than the holocaust.

EDIT: And I do think Gill was insane, or at the very least, sociopathic. This is a man who singlehandedly, has the arrogance to assume that he is above the law, that the Prime Directive applies only to others, that alone he can happily meddle in another society's affairs, engineer that society according to whatever principles he holds dear, probably knowing full well as a historian what the Nazi's were responsible for on Earth, without any regard for the millions if not billions of individual lives that his actions will destroy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

hubris is always a possibility: the idea that Gill could have convinced himself that he was smart enough to pick and choose the elements of Nazism that worked for his situation while avoiding the pitfalls.

And of course Gill didn't anticipate the rise of Melakon either. Who knows what things would have been like had Melakon not done what he did. Then again, Nazi society inevitably gave rise to Melakon's type anyway...

 

[MikeH92467]

hubris is always a possibility: the idea that Gill could have convinced himself that he was smart enough to pick and choose the elements of Nazism that worked for his situation while avoiding the pitfalls.

And of course Gill didn't anticipate the rise of Melakon either. Who knows what things would have been like had Melakon not done what he did. Then again, Nazi society inevitably gave rise to Melakon's type anyway...

Even on alien worlds human nature never changes it would seem.

 

[Knight Templar]

The Nazis were the personification of evil. Case closed. There is no justification for emulating them.

Sorry, but you give the Nazis too much credit.

Granted, there's no shortage of evil in the Nazi's practices and policies. But the idea that Nazis are the World's Worst/Evilest Villains is largely a construct of American theater.

--AM

Another factor is that the Nazis were northern Europeans. The group of people that more Americans are descended from than any other for much of our history.

Because such evil was committed by "people like us" we naturally tend to put them in a special class.

 

[Gagarin]

The episode was written in the 60's.

 

[Gary7]

I don't really think it's much about John Gill being insane, as it is the writers and Gene Roddenberry being out of touch.

There is one overwhelmingly fundamental flaw in the entire premise of the series, cited by John Gill himself.
GILL: Planet fragmented. Divided. Took lesson from Earth history.
KIRK: But why Nazi Germany? You studied history. You knew what the Nazis were.
GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?
SPOCK: Perhaps Gill felt that such a state, run benignly, could accomplish its efficiency without sadism.
KIRK: Why, Gill? Why?
GILL: Worked. At first it worked. Then Melakon began take over. Used the. Gave me the drug.

Well, I really can't believe that Nazi Germany was the most efficient state Earth ever knew (and that Spock agreed). Based on what we see the Federation achieve, I'd say the most efficient state came later. Also, it wasn't the "Nazi" philosophy that revitalized Germany. It was a desperate people needing an inspirational leader, who was passionate enough to rally them. Only, he was a mixed bag that brought along great evil with the deal. There was also NO NEED to use swastikas and all the other fascist trappings of Nazi Germany to get the job done. As if that was "part of the influence" needed? No, it was a cost savings for the episode. Roddenberry had the wardrobe closet raided for Nazi uniforms, no alterations needed. But they could have at least used a different insignia, like adding a few lines to close off the swastika into a diamond box. It sickened me to see them use it as-is.

Anyway... Gill claimed that it worked at first, but that it was Melakon who adopted the "Hitler" persona and ran with it, turning it all into an echo of Nazi fascism. Were the circumstances so similar that the people would fall in line and be seduced to following the same footsteps? It seems too incredible.

All of this turned the episode into something at the bottom of the watch list for me.

 

[Timewalker]

400 years ago, Henry VIII was King of England, started the reformation, tore down the monasteries, created a schism in Christianity that is still felt to this day, cost countless lives, and until very recently was still claiming lives because of Northern Ireland.

He's remembered for marrying six wives.

But would he have pushed the Reformation along so hard if marriage to Anne Boleyn wasn't part of the equation? I don't doubt that England would have undergone some sort of reformation/change, as there were many people there and on mainland Europe who were pushing for an end to the Catholic Church's domination. But Henry wanted a legitimate son, Anne Boleyn was willing to give him as many sons as she could - but only if they were legally married. Since the Catholic Church stood in the way of that marriage, Henry VIII found a way to solve that problem.

There is one overwhelmingly fundamental flaw in the entire premise of the series, cited by John Gill himself.
GILL: Planet fragmented. Divided. Took lesson from Earth history.
KIRK: But why Nazi Germany? You studied history. You knew what the Nazis were.
GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?
SPOCK: Perhaps Gill felt that such a state, run benignly, could accomplish its efficiency without sadism.
KIRK: Why, Gill? Why?
GILL: Worked. At first it worked. Then Melakon began take over. Used the. Gave me the drug.

Well, I really can't believe that Nazi Germany was the most efficient state Earth ever knew (and that Spock agreed). Based on what we see the Federation achieve, I'd say the most efficient state came later. Also, it wasn't the "Nazi" philosophy that revitalized Germany. It was a desperate people needing an inspirational leader, who was passionate enough to rally them. Only, he was a mixed bag that brought along great evil with the deal. There was also NO NEED to use swastikas and all the other fascist trappings of Nazi Germany to get the job done. As if that was "part of the influence" needed? No, it was a cost savings for the episode. Roddenberry had the wardrobe closet raided for Nazi uniforms, no alterations needed. But they could have at least used a different insignia, like adding a few lines to close off the swastika into a diamond box. It sickened me to see them use it as-is.

Anyway... Gill claimed that it worked at first, but that it was Melakon who adopted the "Hitler" persona and ran with it, turning it all into an echo of Nazi fascism. Were the circumstances so similar that the people would fall in line and be seduced to following the same footsteps? It seems too incredible.

All of this turned the episode into something at the bottom of the watch list for me.

I've always wondered what the planet's society was like before Gill got there. How bad could it have been if Gill thought Nazi Germany was an improvement?

As for the swastika... I think it's actually a good thing that people see that and shudder or feel sick. We should. "Lest We Forget" isn't just something for Remembrance Day; we need to remember every day. Otherwise we won't have learned a thing.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

400 years ago, Henry VIII was King of England, started the reformation, tore down the monasteries, created a schism in Christianity that is still felt to this day, cost countless lives, and until very recently was still claiming lives because of Northern Ireland.

He's remembered for marrying six wives.

But would he have pushed the Reformation along so hard if marriage to Anne Boleyn wasn't part of the equation? I don't doubt that England would have undergone some sort of reformation/change, as there were many people there and on mainland Europe who were pushing for an end to the Catholic Church's domination. But Henry wanted a legitimate son, Anne Boleyn was willing to give him as many sons as she could - but only if they were legally married. Since the Catholic Church stood in the way of that marriage, Henry VIII found a way to solve that problem.

My comment isn't about historical fact, it's about how people perceive history through the opacity of intervening years.