Was it right to have Vulcans suppress emotions?

[Timo]

Well, we have no proof that the ridges are bone structures. (For all we know, they are forehead erections that usually are limp on emotionally controlled Vulcans!)

And the point is that they could be hundreds of thousands of years old. It would simply be that most of those who became Romulans were of the ridged group, and most of those who remained Vulcans were flatheaded.

..segregation based on racial lines during the Awakening strikes me as odd.

Well, the Awakening came in the aftermath of a global conflict. Perhaps that conflict was all about racism?

We don't know whether the Romulans left before or after Surakism got hold of the planet. Also, we don't know how the Surakist faction came to control. Perhaps Surakians won by nuking their opponents to near-extinction, then shooting the remainder to outer space?

As for telepathy and other mental disciplines, they would have been far too useful for the Romulans to have rejected, if they were perfected well before the schism.

But have the Romulans rejected them? We have had precious little opportunity to study the issue. Romulans aren't generally known skulking in corridors and neck-pinching people - that's hero stuff. They don't mind-meld much, but in what sort of situation would they try that anyway? When holding our heroes prisoner? But they've only done that about three times, and the first time their prisoner got "killed" almost at once in "The Enterprise Incident"; the second time it was but an unconvincing illusion in "Future Imperfect"; and the third time their prisoner was Odo, with whom mind-melding might be a sticky business, if you pardon the racial slur.

We have seen short-distance telepathy practiced by the Reman Viceroy. Whether he was of Vulcan/Romulan stock is still being debated. We have seen the Romulans hire outside help from the Aenar for long-distance telepathy, but we know that Vulcans can't do long-distance, either...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Unlikely?
It's definitely possible.
You have numerous individuals today who for example utilize meditation to deal with emotions internally and not really express them without any psychological problems.
I find that an appealing quality.
The only 'consequence' is that people lconsider you as an automaton or a robot when you just try to explain to them you are striving to be neutral and not governed all the time by emotions.

Numerous problems in human history were and to this day are still caused by individuals who cannot control their emotions properly and in effect act as overgrown children.

But again, Deks, you aren't talking about people who have no emotions - you are talking about people who have learned to control them. What some of us have said is that it would be both highly unlikely and dull for a biological being to have no emotions.

I understand what you are saying, but that discussion has stemmed from the original premise of the thread.
To that extent ... Vulcans DO have emotions.
They merely learned to control them.
Humans can replicate this control with sufficient practice without any negative consequences (in real life I might add).

As for having a biological being to have no emotions ...
Well first of all, I don't think it would be dull.
I personally think it would be fascinating ... and maybe it's also possible.
For one thing ... we don't know just what types of life-forms exist in our galaxy, much less the rest of the universe.
Our galaxy alone is 100 000 ly's from one end to the other ... yet it's less than a microscopic space dust on a universal scale.

There's a possibility that conditions on some planets in our galaxy alone can create emotionless beings.

To limit ones perception of the galaxy or the universe of what we know would in itself be dull in my personal opinion.

 

[xortex]

Unlikely?
It's definitely possible.
You have numerous individuals today who for example utilize meditation to deal with emotions internally and not really express them without any psychological problems.
I find that an appealing quality.
The only 'consequence' is that people lconsider you as an automaton or a robot when you just try to explain to them you are striving to be neutral and not governed all the time by emotions.

Numerous problems in human history were and to this day are still caused by individuals who cannot control their emotions properly and in effect act as overgrown children.

But again, Deks, you aren't talking about people who have no emotions - you are talking about people who have learned to control them. What some of us have said is that it would be both highly unlikely and dull for a biological being to have no emotions.

I understand what you are saying, but that discussion has stemmed from the original premise of the thread.
To that extent ... Vulcans DO have emotions.
They merely learned to control them.
Humans can replicate this control with sufficient practice without any negative consequences (in real life I might add).

As for having a biological being to have no emotions ...
Well first of all, I don't think it would be dull.
I personally think it would be fascinating ... and maybe it's also possible.
For one thing ... we don't know just what types of life-forms exist in our galaxy, much less the rest of the universe.
Our galaxy alone is 100 000 ly's from one end to the other ... yet it's less than a microscopic space dust on a universal scale.

There's a possibility that conditions on some planets in our galaxy alone can create emotionless beings.

To limit ones perception of the galaxy or the universe of what we know would in itself be dull in my personal opinion.

If you want dull, go no farther than Tpol. My God, she was a house fly, and yet she's such a cool person in real life and prettier with long hair. T'pring had long hair. What gives. Not enough thought.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, we have no proof that the ridges are bone structures. (For all we know, they are forehead erections that usually are limp on emotionally controlled Vulcans!)

And the point is that they could be hundreds of thousands of years old. It would simply be that most of those who became Romulans were of the ridged group, and most of those who remained Vulcans were flatheaded.

..segregation based on racial lines during the Awakening strikes me as odd.

Well, the Awakening came in the aftermath of a global conflict. Perhaps that conflict was all about racism?

We don't know whether the Romulans left before or after Surakism got hold of the planet. Also, we don't know how the Surakist faction came to control. Perhaps Surakians won by nuking their opponents to near-extinction, then shooting the remainder to outer space?

As for telepathy and other mental disciplines, they would have been far too useful for the Romulans to have rejected, if they were perfected well before the schism.

But have the Romulans rejected them? We have had precious little opportunity to study the issue. Romulans aren't generally known skulking in corridors and neck-pinching people - that's hero stuff. They don't mind-meld much, but in what sort of situation would they try that anyway? When holding our heroes prisoner? But they've only done that about three times, and the first time their prisoner got "killed" almost at once in "The Enterprise Incident"; the second time it was but an unconvincing illusion in "Future Imperfect"; and the third time their prisoner was Odo, with whom mind-melding might be a sticky business, if you pardon the racial slur.

We have seen short-distance telepathy practiced by the Reman Viceroy. Whether he was of Vulcan/Romulan stock is still being debated. We have seen the Romulans hire outside help from the Aenar for long-distance telepathy, but we know that Vulcans can't do long-distance, either...

Timo Saloniemi

You raise some good point, but a few quick things because I'm leaving in a moment :

Re: Romulan mind-melds--we do not know that they don't do them, but we do know they prefer technology when Vulcans prefer a more hand-on approach, from "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," at least, as well as numerous other references to mind probing. Of course, I grant that just because someone uses technology to do the work of a mind, does not automatically imply that the mind is incapable of doing that work--e.g., I often use a calculator, but I'm still capable of working out sums, differences and products (less so quotients ) without mechanical help.

Re: distance. Spock sensed the Intrepid at long distance (and superluminally), that stupid thing from Gambit worked at a long distance (and superluminally?), and, like you said, if Remans are biologically Vulcan, Ron Perlman worked at a distance (no evidence for superluminal speed there). It's a hodge-podge with no clear rules, unfortunately.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The near-totalitarian adherence to "logic" that seems to dominate Vulcan culture and interspecies relations is extremely distasteful to the human palate, to be sure. That's why Romulans are like blondes: they have more fun.

If xenophobic paranoia, war, scheming, and secret police are your idea of fun, then yes.

The way I figure it, the Vulcans and Rommies both have the same problem: levels of emotional volitility that are so extreme as to render them unable to develop functioning socieities, unless some coping/deflecting mechanism is found. You've described the Rommie strategy; for Vulcans, it's simpler: turn logic and emotional suppression into a culturewide fetish.

Otherwise, the Vulcans look like chumps, making themselves miserable for no reason. They can't be that dumb. Has to be a good reason for it.

 

[roguephoenix]

emotional supression i think was one of those "first aid" things they implemented in their society because given their powers they are very dangerous creatures if they gave in to their emotional tendencies like humans (though they claim their emotions are multiplied those of humans). once that worked to stablize their society, they figured why "rock the boat." instead of controlling their emotions to normal levels, they figured with their abilities they might as well not feel so they could avoid the pitfalls of having them?

i can see that. they could very well have become the romulans, except with powers. imagine if the romulans were that powerful.

 

[xortex]

You hit it on the head. Their powers plus their emotions equaled disaster. The Romulans lost their powers in favor of emotions eventually.

 

[KobayashiMaru13]

It has been stated in Vulcan history that Surak came along at a time where war abounded, the te-Vikram and Technocrats had split the world's people in two. If Surak had not taught them to control their emotions and embrace logic, Vulcan would have been wasted by a full-scale nuclear war, the survivors to be slowly killed by extreme levels of radiation.

 

[Myasishchev]

I thought they did undergo a full-scale nuclear war, and Surak was a casualty?

 

[KobayashiMaru13]

Also (as I forgot to mention) the Romulans were a group of Vulcans aboard "Great Ships" that left the Homeworld in order to preserve the species in the face of possible extinction. Among these were Surak followers which would explain why the Romulans are... more controlled than their ancestors, but often a little less than humans.

 

[KobayashiMaru13]

I thought they did undergo a full-scale nuclear war, and Surak was a casualty?

well, there was a battle, and the Vulcan Space Institue was destroyed during the launch of the Great Ships, and Surak was inside. and there were certainly such wars beforehand, though Vulcan had managed to survive by a hair.

 

[Rackon]

Also (as I forgot to mention) the Romulans were a group of Vulcans aboard "Great Ships" that left the Homeworld in order to preserve the species in the face of possible extinction. Among these were Surak followers which would explain why the Romulans are... more controlled than their ancestors, but often a little less than humans.

?????

Isn't the point of Romulans that they're NOT as controlled and do not suppress emotion? Why then this emoticon?

The Rihannsu are the folks who left because they disagreed with Surak's pacifist teachings which were being widely embraced. They were the anti-Surakists.