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Was it right to have Vulcans suppress emotions?

Crewman47

Commodore
Newbie
Another question on Vulcan society.

I was watching Enterprise episode Fusion a couple of nights ago and I have to agree with the radical Vulcans that were shown in the episode that suppressing emotion seemed to be a mistake for Vulcans. These Vulcans managed to go years without the need to suppress and could control through other means but, also, look at the Romulans, descended from Vulcans, possibly living on a similar world to Vulcan, have developed differently but can function in most alien societies witthout the need to suppress there emotions. Granted there have been a few groups of Romulans who can out of control but nothing to the extent of what the Vulcans of the Surak era went through.

I know it's a topic that discussed to death but what are your thoughts on the Vulcan suppressing of emotion in favour of logic?
 
The near-totalitarian adherence to "logic" that seems to dominate Vulcan culture and interspecies relations is extremely distasteful to the human palate, to be sure. That's why Romulans are like blondes: they have more fun.

I find it very easy to imagine Surakism as a millennial cult that grew in importance in the aftermath of Vulcan's own post-atomic horror, possibly even due to a disproportionate survival rate thanks to their penchant for setting up Branch Davidian-esque compounds in virtually unliveable parts of the planet. In the broken conditions after the world war, and in part because of quality fable of their radiation-poisoned, pointy-eared messiah dying in a war he'd pleaded and wheedled to stop, they managed to set up something like a state religion for the whole planet. Heck, Star Charts lists the official name of the government as the "Confederacy of Surak." Which is a lot like a United Earth being named "Union of Jesus Christ.":wtf:

Surakism as it stands in the 22d through 24th centuries at least is portrayed disturbingly like a boot stamping on your feelings forever, although its more esoteric disciplines do seem to have a lot of cool side benefits, like telepathy, smartitude, and a smug sense of superiority.

Speaking of telepathy, mind-melding in the early years can, if one is of a certain bent, be viewed with a great deal of suspicion. Although Vulcans appear to have a great natural aptitude for telepathy, the evidence of the non-telepathic Romulans strongly suggests that Surakism is responsible for the capabilities possessed by their Vulcan cousins. Could the wide spread of Surak's philosophy be not due solely to its objective appeal? It's possible that its rapid adoption by the Vulcan people is less of a spontaneous mass conversion than a memetic plague.
 
Could the wide spread of Surak's philosophy be not due solely to its objective appeal? It's possible that its rapid adoption by the Vulcan people is less of a spontaneous mass conversion than a memetic plague.

That's a very interesting spin and a very good point. Brainwashing via mind meld... makes the Vulcans even creepier.
 
Enterprise screws that theory a little, unfortunately, with its really clumsy attempt at mind meld-as-a-metaphor-for-unprotected-sex. I'm still not sure what I was supposed to bring away from that. Always wear a latex glove when I'm touching Spock's face?
 
The near-totalitarian adherence to "logic" that seems to dominate Vulcan culture and interspecies relations is extremely distasteful to the human palate, to be sure. That's why Romulans are like blondes: they have more fun.
If xenophobic paranoia, war, scheming, and secret police are your idea of fun, then yes. :cardie::vulcan::rommie:
 
The way I always saw it was that Vulcan emotions are actually many more times more intense than Human emotions and are much more self-destructive in nature. I think during the time of Surak, the Vulcan race was on the verge of self-extinction and his philosophy of suppressing these emotions and pursing a path of total logic was seen as the best way of saving the Vulcan race from destroying itself...and is still regarded as such today.

I think the same thing could have happened to the Vulcans who left to eventually become Romulans, but rather than suppress emotions, they adopted a philosophy of interplanetary conquest as an outlet for their aggressive tendencies, IMO...
 
This is a good question and the 'Enterprise' writers should have given it a bit more thought but noone was gonna lift their head while Berman was around. I would have made Emotions alien to Vulcans except of course Spock who's half Human and therefore would have more intense emotions. I would think the Romulan's emotions arose out of a mutation of sorts and that Vulcans so affected were ousted and destined to become Romulans some day.
 
Maybe I am just too much of a traditionalist, but I really wouldn't want it anyway other than the way we got it - with Vulcans experiencing emotions but working to suppress them and prevent those emotions from affecting their decisions.

The in-universe reason: You can't argue with success, right? According to the Vulcans themselves, they were on the brink of self-annihilation until the teachings of Surak showed them another way. Whether that's true or not, the result is a society that has not only survived but has influence throughout the quadrant.

The out-of-universe reason: You can't argue with success, right? I never watched Enterprise much so I don't know much about T'Pol, but Sarek is one of my all-time favorite characters, and he's far, far, far more interesting and intriguing (and flat-out sexy, frankly) as a man who must constantly work to maintain control than he would be if emotions were alien to him.
 
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It's half true. Those inflicted by emotions created the horrors. So yea, they may becoming more and more emotional as time goes on and it crops up here and there. But at the beginning it was very violent until Surak calmed it down with his blood I guess.
 
I've never seen that Enterprise episode, so I can't really speak for it. I will say that I've always been fairly pleased with the way the whole concept has been handled. It's a fairly simple story-telling device that's yielded a ton of material that's in turn given the Vulcans and Romulans a lot of the depth their cultures enjoy now.
 
Maybe I am just too much of a traditionalist, but I really wouldn't want it anyway other than the way we got it - with Vulcans experiencing emotions but working to suppress them and prevent those emotions from affecting their decisions.

The in-universe reason: You can't argue with success, right? According to the Vulcans themselves, they were on the brink of self-annillation until the teachings of Surak showed them another way. Whether that's true or not, the result is a society that has not only survived but has influence throughout the quadrant.

The out-of-universe reason: You can't argue with success, right? I never watched Enterprise much so I don't know much about T'Pol, but Sarek is one of my all-time favorite characters, and he's far, far, far more interesting and intriguing (and flat-out sexy, frankly) as a man who must constantly work to maintain control than he would be if emotions were alien to him.
Besides, I find the idea of sentient biological living beings without emotions simply unbelievable.

And even if I got over that, how would you even protray an entire race of beings without emotions? Almost every sentient fictional android or cyborg ends up looking emotional, even when we're being told over and over that they don't have emotions.
 
Emotions SUCK!!! Look at all the gorram wars they started!! Emotionalism nearly destroyed us in the Cuban Missile Crisis!! They caused CRUSADES, FOR CRIPE'S SAKE!! No one on this planet thinks- THEY REACT!!! I'D FREAKIN' KILL ALL OVER-EMOTIONAL JERKOFFS IF I HAD THE CHANCE!!!
TAYLOR DID GOOD IN SETTING OFF THAT ALFA-OMEGA BOMB IN THE SECOND APE FLICK!!!!!


Have I made my point?;)
 
The near-totalitarian adherence to "logic" that seems to dominate Vulcan culture and interspecies relations is extremely distasteful to the human palate, to be sure. That's why Romulans are like blondes: they have more fun.
If xenophobic paranoia, war, scheming, and secret police are your idea of fun, then yes. :cardie::vulcan::rommie:
Well, it would explain why I chose a Russian username.:shifty::p

Besides, I find the idea of sentient biological living beings without emotions simply unbelievable.

And even if I got over that, how would you even protray an entire race of beings without emotions? Almost every sentient fictional android or cyborg ends up looking emotional, even when we're being told over and over that they don't have emotions.

Indeed. Data got to the point where I'm convinced he was playing a huge joke that only the patience of an android could pull off, and laughing himself sick every day.

xortex said:
This is a good question and the 'Enterprise' writers should have given it a bit more thought but noone was gonna lift their head while Berman was around. I would have made Emotions alien to Vulcans except of course Spock who's half Human and therefore would have more intense emotions. I would think the Romulan's emotions arose out of a mutation of sorts and that Vulcans so affected were ousted and destined to become Romulans some day.

1)A 2000 year-old mutation is unlikely sweep through a population of billions. Unless the founding father of Romulus is Wilt Chamberlain or Genghis Khan, and had virtually no competition. Even blonde hair is older than that, and it's a simple trait compared to the multiple traits that constitute "emotional" behavioral programming.
2)Emotion tends to have firm logical underpinnings, from an evolutionary point of view. Sexual desire, spousal and parental love, anger, even spite, have all been selected for, and are general adaptations to competition for scarce resources, almost universal in mammals, and with a great degree of penetration amongst all vertebrates and sufficiently advanced invertebrates. It's hard to imagine them not being replicated in the harsh conditions of Vulcan. Of all the emotional responses, the only one I can think of offhand that might not almost by necessity arise is humor.
3)Most importantly, Vulcans completely without emotions are far less interesting than those who suppress their emotions.
 
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The near-totalitarian adherence to "logic" that seems to dominate Vulcan culture and interspecies relations is extremely distasteful to the human palate, to be sure. That's why Romulans are like blondes: they have more fun.
If xenophobic paranoia, war, scheming, and secret police are your idea of fun, then yes. :cardie::vulcan::rommie:
Well, it would explain why I chose a Russian username.:shifty::p

Besides, I find the idea of sentient biological living beings without emotions simply unbelievable.

And even if I got over that, how would you even protray an entire race of beings without emotions? Almost every sentient fictional android or cyborg ends up looking emotional, even when we're being told over and over that they don't have emotions.

Indeed. Data got to the point where I'm convinced he was playing a huge joke that only the patience of an android could pull off, and laughing himself sick every day.

xortex said:
This is a good question and the 'Enterprise' writers should have given it a bit more thought but noone was gonna lift their head while Berman was around. I would have made Emotions alien to Vulcans except of course Spock who's half Human and therefore would have more intense emotions. I would think the Romulan's emotions arose out of a mutation of sorts and that Vulcans so affected were ousted and destined to become Romulans some day.

1)A 2000 year-old mutation is unlikely sweep through a population of billions. Unless the founding father of Romulus is Wilt Chamberlain or Genghis Khan, and had virtually no competition. Even blonde hair is older than that, and it's a simple trait compared to the multiple traits that constitute "emotional" behavioral programming.

2)Emotion tends to have firm logical underpinnings, from an evolutionary point of view. Sexual desire, spousal and parental love, anger, even spite, have all been selected for, and are general adaptations to competition for scarce resources, almost universal in mammals, and with a great degree of penetration amongst all vertebrates and sufficiently advanced invertebrates. It's hard to imagine them not being replicated in the harsh conditions of Vulcan. Of all the emotional responses, the only one I can think of offhand that might not almost by necessity arise is humor.
3)Most importantly, Vulcans completely without emotions are far less interesting than those who suppress their emotions.

(Emphasis mine.)


I also find the idea of intelligent humanoids without emotion unlikely in the extreme, given the normal evolutionary development of mammals. I'm no evolutionary/socio-biologist, but, as Myasichev states above, there are very good survival reasons for emotions. In fact, the limited resources and harsh conditions of Vulcan would seem to argue in favor of the development of intense emotions.

As shown in Trek, Vulcans do indeed have emotions. Although I'm sure the "emotional control" aspect of Spock/Vulcans came about for dramatic contrast rather than scientific reasons (and yes, I know about Number One), one can see from the TOS to XI that Vulcan emotion is canon, along with the race's effort to master, suppress and control them. how much more fun for us. (Enterprise be damned, those guys were annoying and contradictory in their treatment of Vulcan psychology and motivation.)

Although the writers on TOS often had Spock (and other Vulcans) stating he feels no emotion (or sometimes no "human" emotion), I don't think most of us takes that at face value, since Spock clearly does feel emotion, as does Sarek. Some of Spock's protestations are a subtle (and not so subtle) needling of his crew mates. We've seen plenty of emotion - subtle, overt, supressed or otherwise - in TOS, films and TNG from Spock, Surak and other Vulcans.

There is also a school of thought that because of his mixed heritage and the high expectations of his father, Spock attempts to be "more Vulcan than the Vulcans. Certainly I think a lot of the interest in Spock is his search for his identity, always "the other" in whatever culture he resides. No wonder the man found a home in Starfleet.

Most everything in canon and in Treklit shows that Vulcan emotions are, in fact, stronger and more aggressive than human ones. Surak's philosophy, developed during a time when wars and violence put the very survival of the race in jeopardy, posited that fear was at the root of most Vulcan agression and conflict. His development of the practice of "c'thia" - or mastery of emotion - through meditation and other mental disciplines was to save the race from themselves. It was not intended to be a "religion", but a method for attaining a space of calm in which to act more less violently. Achieving c'thia was a way of seeing "what actually is" in any given situation, uncolored by emotion, in order to make logical, ethical and well-reasoned decisions. This philosophy eventually spread across Vulcan to become the dominant pillar of their culture. However, it appears to me that only certain adepts on Mt. Seleya take it to the point of eliminating emotion entirely. Kol'inahr isn't the way most people on Vulcan live.

The Vulcan mental abilities seem to have been developed and practiced much more widely after Surak's time, but one must assume from a practical point of view (which is supported in much fanon and Treklit) that mental abilities were inherent in Vulcans before Surak, but the peace and advancement of mind techniques after the "Reformation" allowed these talents to fully flower.

A few thousand years isn't a long enough span to provide significant genetic drift for the trait to have completely died out amongst the Romulans. (This means there's no damned good reason for those ugly and stupid Rommie ridges on the Rommies in TNG either).

But the mind techniques would have been less advanced at the time of the sundering and moreover, they weren't developed amongst the Rihannsu. The Vulcans have now had at least a couple thousand years to develop advanced mental techniques, which appears to be a cultural norm (monoculture alert!!) . As with most talents, one assumes a range of abilities - some individuals would have stronger natural telepathic abilities than others. One would also presume that the ability is latent in some Romulans and could be taught to those individuals.
 
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Besides, I find the idea of sentient biological living beings without emotions simply unbelievable.

And even if I got over that, how would you even protray an entire race of beings without emotions? Almost every sentient fictional android or cyborg ends up looking emotional, even when we're being told over and over that they don't have emotions.

Indeed. Data got to the point where I'm convinced he was playing a huge joke that only the patience of an android could pull off, and laughing himself sick every day.

I agree that emotionless biological beings are just incredibly unlikely.

May I also add that they'd be incredibly boring to watch? It would be OK as a novelty, I guess, for the occasional episode, but episode after episode after episode? Nah. Even the emotionless Data didn't appear to stay emotionless for very long.
 
Unlikely?
It's definitely possible.
You have numerous individuals today who for example utilize meditation to deal with emotions internally and not really express them without any psychological problems.
I find that an appealing quality.
The only 'consequence' is that other people consider you as an automaton or a robot when you just try to explain to them you are striving to be neutral and not governed all the time by emotions ... something they apparetly don't get.

Numerous problems in human history were and to this day are still caused by individuals who cannot control their emotions properly and in effect act as overgrown children.
 
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Unlikely?
It's definitely possible.
You have numerous individuals today who for example utilize meditation to deal with emotions internally and not really express them without any psychological problems.
I find that an appealing quality.
The only 'consequence' is that people lconsider you as an automaton or a robot when you just try to explain to them you are striving to be neutral and not governed all the time by emotions.

Numerous problems in human history were and to this day are still caused by individuals who cannot control their emotions properly and in effect act as overgrown children.

But again, Deks, you aren't talking about people who have no emotions - you are talking about people who have learned to control them. What some of us have said is that it would be both highly unlikely and dull for a biological being to have no emotions.
 
There are other survival tools that they developed instead like telepathey and such. Heck, the science in Star Trek alone is incredibly unlikely itself. I think it would be mythically cool if the Vulcans had no or deeply surpressed emotions that they were ashamed of or can't quite control. Vulcans are stoic and ascetic and Star Trek I like to believe is always evolving towards a metaphysical and mythological certitude and truer resonance with the fans. Past mistakes can be smoothed over as in life and erased and don't necessarily have to become canon. Plus it's a dramatic fantasy. The writers can do anything they want. I wonder if we can be fooled something is an emotion when it really isn't, just an algorythm or something like the Hal 9000 computer
 
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This means there's no damned good reason for those ugly and stupid Rommie ridges on the Rommies in TNG either.

Unless they had the ridges to begin with. Do you remember any good examples of (self-)banishment of ethnic groups to previously uninhabited areas, islands or the like? That is, groups different from the originating group ethnically? Say, the Romulans could be what would have happened if the stereotypical British Empire had managed to banish all the stereotypical Irish to some stereotypical Pacific island... A strange "mutation" towards red curly hair would be evident.

But the mind techniques would have been less advanced at the time of the sundering
Why? Vulcan culture is probably much older than a couple of thousand years: the mind arts might have reached perfection millennia before the sundering.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Red hair is a mutation that creates lower melanin levels, though. Romulan forehead ridges are a mutation--if that is what it is--that completely changes the skull structure. I dunno how likely it is. Even if it were a relatively minor mutation, like red hair, red hair is at least a few thousand years older than the Vulcan schism, and while nothing says that a putative butthead gene is not older than the schism, segregation based on racial lines during the Awakening strikes me as odd.

However, I'll grant that it might be a trait in an isolated population which was eliminated or significantly reduced by post-Awakening interbreeding. It's also hard to say what function the butthead actually serves, although it is true that a mutation need not necessarily have a direct impact on an organism's survival probabilities to be successful.

But I still say it's Vulcan rickets, if I dignify it by recognizing its existence at all.:shifty:

As for telepathy and other mental disciplines, they would have been far too useful for the Romulans to have rejected, if they were perfected well before the schism.
 
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