Was It Mind Rape? SPOILERS

[maryh]

In ST6 when Spock forced a meld on Valeris some complained that it was out of character for him to do so, that it violated rights, and morals and that Spock was not the class act that some claimed.

In this Trek Spock probes the mind of the unconscious Romulan without his consent -- do those who were offended by the Valeris probe feel the same about this mind probe?

The Romulans were using torture on Pike to get information. What would Kirk have done had he not had Spock to do a nonviolent mind meld by force to get the information necessary to save Pike and Eareth. Was it justified morally?

 

[zambingo]

The only time I recall Spock asking for permission to meld with anything was if he was melding with a friend and if the situation had the time/ability to ask. Otherwise I always recall Spock just placing his hands on whatever he is melding with and diving in... so to speak.

Also in the commentary of ST6 I'm pretty certain it is mentioned that the scene was played that way not out of a desire to imply mind rape, but because they hadn't shown an active Vulcan/Vulcan meld before and they decided to figure out what that might look like. However I think that might be a 20/20 hindsight explanation due to what it does look like... which is a forced and violent push into Valeris's mind.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

 

[maryh]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it is the pain that bothers you, not the idea of a forced meld? We certainly know the Romulan would never have consented to that probe.

 

[Trekker4747]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it's OK to rape someone if they're unconscious and won't feel anything?

 

[gastrof]

Is it okay to force someone who has info that's needed to save one or more lives to give you that information? I'm sure that in the moment it'd seem to many just fine.

Looking at it from a distance or after the fact, it may seem a little different.

 

[pah2602]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it's OK to rape someone if they're unconscious and won't feel anything?

Yes

 

[P0sitr0nic]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it is the pain that bothers you, not the idea of a forced meld? We certainly know the Romulan would never have consented to that probe.

Neither did Pike consent to being strapped down, and likely "probed", Neither did Robau consent to being gutted like a fish. Romulan had it commin.

 

[gastrof]

So it's OK to rape someone if they're unconscious and won't feel anything?

Yes

That's a foul reply.

Not funny at all.

 

[Trekker4747]

Is it okay to force someone who has info that's needed to save one or more lives to give you that information? I'm sure that in the moment it'd seem to many just fine.

Looking at it from a distance or after the fact, it may seem a little different.

Yep. Spock should've waterboarded the guy!

 

[zambingo]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it's OK to rape someone if they're unconscious and won't feel anything?

It is possible that Peter was not implying it was okay to do to the Romulan, just that the scene played differently than the ST6 scene because the Romulan was unconscious. aka The Romulan didn't moan or yelp like Valeris, because he wasn't consciously aware of what was happening.

Saying that is not the same as justifying the action.

At the least whether forcibly done or with permission granted the Vulcan mind meld is an invasion of privacy. At the most whether forcibly done or with permission the Vulcan mind meld is an intrusion into another mind and a stripping away of the barriers we keep to protect not just information but our very identity.

Is a mind meld ever right to do? Is a forceful mind meld as bad as beating a man almost to death to get information? Possibly. But then I suppose that perception might be different between the man that was [beaten] close to death and the man that had the Vulcan tell him, "Your mind to my mind" etc etc.

Am I minimizing the issue? Probably. But as with all things in life I suppose that depends greatly on your own point of view.

Edit: corrected a typo/word substitution. correction in brackets.

 

[pah2602]

So it's OK to rape someone if they're unconscious and won't feel anything?

Yes

That's a foul reply.

Not funny at all.

Posted because no one expected it to be.
Bad taste, My apologies.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it is the pain that bothers you, not the idea of a forced meld? We certainly know the Romulan would never have consented to that probe.

No, the forced meld - or a technological mind probe, for that matter - is definitely the ultimate invasion of privacy. But is it, in and of itself, as emotionally scarring as physical rape? A surface viewing of the Valeris scene, and her reactions to the meld, might suggest so, but this is inconsistent with all the other mind melds we have seen Vulcans do. My explanation is that she was throwing up defenses that he was bashing down, causing her psychic pain.

Whether it is moral or not to invade someone's mind for information is a question we may have to deal with as a society very soon. The technology is getting closer every day, and with the current torture debate, we will have to decide if invading mental privacy for life and death information is acceptable. But I would argue that this act is quite distinct from rape.

 

[cubbie]

This is a fascinating conversation about the ethical implications of mind melding with someone who is not consenting or unable to give consent.

Did Spock mind rape the Horta? No, I don't think so, despite the inability of the Horta to give consent initially.

Did Spock mind rape the unconscious Romulan? No, I still don't think so. Rape is about power and control, not the actual act. Spock wanted information, but he didn't demonstrate that he was more powerful than the Romulan by extracting that information and he didn't leave the Romulan vulnerable by the act.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The scene with Valeris is still disturbing, but I always figured those cries were really more about her putting up defenses, and Spock smashing through them in a direct and painful fashion. The Romulan, being unconscious and not as mentally disciplined, wouldn't have been able to do the same.

So it's OK to rape someone if they're unconscious and won't feel anything?

It is possible that Peter was not implying it was okay to do to the Romulan, just that the scene played differently than the ST6 scene because the Romulan was unconscious. aka The Romulan didn't moan or yelp like Valeris, because he wasn't consciously aware of what was happening.

Saying that is not the same as justifying the action.

At the least whether forcibly done or with permission granted the Vulcan mind meld is an invasion of privacy. At the most whether forcibly done or with permission the Vulcan mind meld is an intrusion into another mind and a stripping away of the barriers we keep to protect not just information but our very identity.

Is a mind meld ever right to do? Is a forceful mind meld as bad as beating a man almost to death to get information? Possibly. But then I suppose that perception might be different between the man that was between close to death and the man that had the Vulcan tell him, "Your mind to my mind" etc etc.

Am I minimizing the issue? Probably. But as with all things in life I suppose that depends greatly on your own point of view.

Oh, see, you already done wrote what I wrote. Should have scrolled down.

I really think this is going to be a big debate in the world, however, in a few decades time. The cutting edge of MRI scans are already able to tell when certain words and images cross a subject's mind, and given the nature of the torture debate, mind reading tech would be viewed as a viable and reliable alternative. I don't think you can really call mind reading "torture" anymore than you can call it rape, but there is no question it is an invasion of privacy, beyond anything modern civil rights law has so far imagined.

 

[maryh]

Oh, see, you already done wrote what I wrote. Should have scrolled down.

I really think this is going to be a big debate in the world, however, in a few decades time. The cutting edge of MRI scans are already able to tell when certain words and images cross a subject's mind, and given the nature of the torture debate, mind reading tech would be viewed as a viable and reliable alternative. I don't think you can really call mind reading "torture" anymore than you can call it rape, but there is no question it is an invasion of privacy, beyond anything modern civil rights law has so far imagined.

Actually I think this is a very old debate that could be retitled "Does the end justify the means?" and history is replete with examples. When we debated this under the Star Trek Films board it got kind of heated. I believe I used the example of Abraham Lincoln suspending the writ of Habeas Corpus as an example. Lincoln said "Would you let the entire body go to pieces to preserve a part?" He also reasoned that if the entire government collapsed, the body responsible for enforcing all civil liberties (the federal government as specified in the Constitution) would be gone hence, in a sense, he was preserving the "civil rights". So if Spock had not done so, Earth would follow Vulcans fate, Pike would be dead, the Enterprise might be destroyed, other planets might be targeted next (the entire body responsible for enforcing any privacy rights) -- merely because some nut jobs have the right to privacy?

I think this is best seen at toward the end of "This Side of Paradise" -- when Kirk bends the rules and doesn't lock up Spock for striking him. He said "Well if we are both in the brig who will build the subsonic transmitter?" Sometimes rules are made to be broken. Depending upon your perspective that person is either a "free thinking rebel" or a "traitor".

 

[Tentacle]

oh please in this new version of spock, he have no morals.
I mean he is sleeping with uhura supposedly a student of his.

this new spock will eject people into escape pods, play favors with his girl friend by assigning her to the enterprise.

I doubt he would even raise an eyebrow by probing a romulan

 

[M'Sharak]

Did Spock mind rape the unconscious Romulan? No, I still don't think so. Rape is about power and control, not the actual act. Spock wanted information, but he didn't demonstrate that he was more powerful than the Romulan by extracting that information and he didn't leave the Romulan vulnerable by the act.

...

I really think this is going to be a big debate in the world, however, in a few decades time. The cutting edge of MRI scans are already able to tell when certain words and images cross a subject's mind, and given the nature of the torture debate, mind reading tech would be viewed as a viable and reliable alternative. I don't think you can really call mind reading "torture" anymore than you can call it rape, but there is no question it is an invasion of privacy, beyond anything modern civil rights law has so far imagined.

I think these are on the right track. Not rape, but invasion of privacy in the same sense that eavesdropping or wiretapping would be or, put in a larger-scale and more adversarial context such as the one in which Spock and the Romulan are seen, espionage: the obtaining of crucial information possessed by an enemy in the most efficacious manner possible.

 

[Peter the Younger]

oh please in this new version of spock, he have no morals.
I mean he is sleeping with uhura supposedly a student of his.

this new spock will eject people into escape pods, play favors with his girl friend by assigning her to the enterprise.

I doubt he would even raise an eyebrow by probing a romulan

Yeah, you hate the movie, it's an abomination. We get it.

 

[dru]

Is it okay to force someone who has info that's needed to save one or more lives to give you that information? I'm sure that in the moment it'd seem to many just fine.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."